# How Do You Want To Learn And Play



## Lead Tape (Apr 16, 2007)

Let's assume you have already been through some lessons and you fully understand the FUNDAMENTALS and are actually using them properly, which is Grip, Stance, Posture, and Alignment. I don't mean that you THINK you're doing the fundamentals properly and have an understanding...I mean you REALLY do have it down pat in actual playing conditions.

From there on out, would you rather learn the game and play the game by "FEEL" from a qualified pro, or would you rather learn from a base of knowledge that involves technique such as understanding and analyzing everything about planes, angles, positions, etc. throughout the swing?


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## 65nlovenit (Dec 8, 2006)

Speaking strictly for myself, I think I would go with the qualified pro, a pro can stand back and take a critical look at what your doing and how your doing it. Its probably the most expensive way to go but a top notch pro can give you an honest assessment of your possabilities for going any further. Just my opinion.


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## jump15vc (Jul 30, 2006)

I think to be a truly good golfer it takes a balance of both technical knowledge and feel for the golf swing. you can feel your swing as well as you want but you wont get too far if you have big mechanical problems, but at the same time you cant play golf like a robot, you need to use imagination and have the ability to visualize different shots. 

but for a beginner i think feel is more important when taught by a pro. having feel will allow you to shoot better scores up to a point when both are needed to progress further


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

Well, I'm no beginner, but IMO feel is more important than science. Even the technical players still have to have feel to provide the feedback to input into any corrections. And with feel, you can be more creative with your shotmaking than the purely technical swinger. Being a feel type player myself, I wouldn't waste my money on a program that was totally devoted to the technical side of golf. :dunno:


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## BrianMcG (Apr 7, 2007)

When Fred Couples first got on tour, he was having a little trouble with his swing. He asked whatever the teaching pro de jure was (I think it was Toski) to take a look at his swing. Toski started talking to him about what he thought was wrong, he said "As you are coming into the ball you clubface is still really open". Couples responded "What does 'open' mean".

I think it is fun to have a lot of knowledge about the swing and to learn more about it, but it is not necessary to become a great player. Let someone else do that for you as you beat balls.

Or you can be like this guy:
YouTube - Golf Tip


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## Lead Tape (Apr 16, 2007)

BrianMcG said:


> When Fred Couples first got on tour, he was having a little trouble with his swing. He asked whatever the teaching pro de jure was (I think it was Toski) to take a look at his swing. Toski started talking to him about what he thought was wrong, he said "As you are coming into the ball you clubface is still really open". Couples responded "What does 'open' mean".
> 
> I think it is fun to have a lot of knowledge about the swing and to learn more about it, but it is not necessary to become a great player. Let someone else do that for you as you beat balls.
> 
> ...


ROTFLMAO about the youtube video. That was great.

You're right about Couples, HE probably knows the LEAST about any of the technical aspects of the golf swing than any PGA Tour player and that's just the way he is. Btw, if it was Toski that was giving Couples the lesson, that probably would have been about as technical as he would have gotten in the lesson anyway. Toski is without a doubt on of the best "FEEL" teachers in the history of the game.

On that same you tube link off to the right, Toski gives a comlete analysis of Tiger Woods hitting a driver to Peter Kessler on TGC. 
He gets technical as a teacher would in his explanation and breakdown of the swing...or he would also look for those positions when first analyzing a player in a lesson situation...but he would NEVER explain or pass on that info to the player himself as part of the lesson. Toski converts EVERYTHING technical into "feel sensations", which in my opinion makes him one of the greatest teachers in the history of the game. A number of teachers get very technical and complicated as they pass what THEY know on to the student, and then the student becomes a walking encyclopedia instead of a player.

Although Ken Duke didn't win yesterday in New Orleans and took 2nd place, he was player of the year last year on the Nationwide Tour and leading money winner out there. At 38 years of age and beating it around the world for many years overseas and on mini tours here, he finally struck it big and in large part it would have to be because of going under Toski's wing for the last couple of years.

I guess I'm getting a little side tracked on this post, but I just can't say enough about Bob Toski as a teacher, one of the most brilliant golfing minds ever, a showman, a giving human being, and the best communicator of how to "feel" the golf swing than anyone out there. 

In addition to that, he can speak from experience as a PGA Tour player who did it himself under the gun. Although he didn't have a long career as a player because he preferred teaching and staying close to home with his family, he WON a number of times and was the LEADING MONEY WINNER on tour in 1954, the year after Ben Hogan had his greatest year.

(Does anybody get the feeling that I'm a Toski fan?) LOL


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## Butz (Nov 17, 2006)

Lead Tape said:


> Let's assume you have already been through some lessons and you fully understand the FUNDAMENTALS and are actually using them properly, which is Grip, Stance, Posture, and Alignment. I don't mean that you THINK you're doing the fundamentals properly and have an understanding...I mean you REALLY do have it down pat in actual playing conditions.
> 
> From there on out, would you rather learn the game and play the game by "FEEL" from a qualified pro, or would you rather learn from a base of knowledge that involves technique such as understanding and analyzing everything about planes, angles, positions, etc. throughout the swing?


Hey,
for me, I would go and hire my Golf Pro to teach me not only at the practice range but also at fairway.

And I am doing this once a month with him. My Golf Pro will teach me how to hit the club and demo how he would hit the iron.

Its going to be hard if you will just do it yourself. You will gain nothing by analyzing your own fault.


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## 300Yards (Jan 23, 2007)

Lead Tape said:


> Let's assume you have already been through some lessons and you fully understand the FUNDAMENTALS and are actually using them properly, which is Grip, Stance, Posture, and Alignment. I don't mean that you THINK you're doing the fundamentals properly and have an understanding...I mean you REALLY do have it down pat in actual playing conditions.
> 
> From there on out, would you rather learn the game and play the game by "FEEL" from a qualified pro, or would you rather learn from a base of knowledge that involves technique such as understanding and analyzing everything about planes, angles, positions, etc. throughout the swing?


I'll have to say neither..as I am almost entirely self taught, and proud of it. As far as which I would rather use, I'd have to go with feel. If you overthink to much, worrying about planes, angles, etc..you are going to get imtimidated by the course, and mess up. Even in wind situation, I just go with what feels right. If that means playing a draw, then so be it. I think everyone should go with what feels right with their game, and if that means analyzing things, like a robot, then do it. Nothing wrong with either technique of learning, IMO...as long as your learning the right technique. My 2 cents.


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## Toad (Apr 19, 2007)

I would label myself a feel player. Feel is key to me and my game. That said, I have become a MUCH better player when I studied the swing mechanically. The talk of swing planes etc always confused me, that is until I started connecting technical terms with feelings. 

I had a pro that told me once "To hit a high trajectory shot you need to flatten your swing plane" That statement scared the hell out of me as a feel player. Then later...I figured out that "flattening my swing plane" means putting the ball a little further away from me than feels normal...easy! The marriage of my feel roots coupled with some technical study has been a real boon for my game.

This is just what works for me. I know some other players...all low handicap guys. Some of them hear swing plane and will run for the door. They dont want to hear ANYTHING technical...ESPECIALLY about their swing. It takes all kinds.


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## TMC (Nov 19, 2006)

I'm not at the playing level you're talking about yet (probably just *think* I am, hee hee!)

Anyway, being a geeky guy, I tend to like technical explanations, and allusions to other movement. 

But, there's one phrases that never made sense to me: "To hit the ball up you need to strike "down" on it, not sweep it" Everytime I try that, I break my club. 

I'm also a very visual person. For me when I see something, I imagine how it will feel. But, often it feels differently than how I think it would. That's why having an instructor tell me when I'm doing certain parts right helps me dial in my 'feel'.

I think this is also why I'd love instant video feedback on each swing, with an instuctor telling me what is and isn't working in my swing.

Cheers,
-TMC


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## JPsuff (Jan 9, 2007)

.


Feel is infinitely more important than technical knowledge.

I'm a feel player and I go by feel with many things in life. Take music for example. I play drums and I've never had a lesson, yet almost every bassist and guitarist I've ever played with always told me that they'd rather play with me than many more technically accomplished musicians because I have a fundamental feel for music. I can read a drum chart, but I can't "sight read". But, some of the best musicians in the world were self taught and many can't read a whole lot of music. But man, can they play! And that comes from feel.

If you don't have the feel for something then you'll never really be good at it. If you don't have rhythm, you probably won't be a good musician. If you don't have keen balance and agility, you probably won't be a good dancer. If you don't have a sense of color, design, and texture, you probably won't be an artist.

That's not to say that someone - anyone really - couldn't be shown these things and given various drills or exercises to become more proficient at a given task. But without an inherent sense of feel for that task, they'll never be "great" at it and that's that.

I can't jump worth a spit in the ocean and because of that, I'll never be a great basketball player. Sure, I used to have a pretty good outside shot, but without an ability to jump high, my success in basketball would be limited to that shot and I'd be rendered rather one-dimensional. I have a pretty good voice in the shower, but I'm no singer and I know that with training I could become a decent singer, but I'd never be really good at it.

Golf as well as many other things, I definitely have a feel for. I usually see things in three dimensions which is what makes me good in construction, art, music and of course golf. I can "see" a shot in ways that many other people cannot and thus I'm great at getting out of trouble on a golf course or creating shots that bend in various directions.

You can't teach that stuff.

So to attempt to play this or any other game and expect to excel at it without an inherent sense of feel is, in my opinion, an exercise in futility. That doesn't mean that people shouldn't try to enjoy the game anyway, they should just learn not to expect miracles is all.


Hey, you asked.



-JP


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## 300Yards (Jan 23, 2007)

I hereby nominate that the post of the year! Nice post, JP!


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## Lead Tape (Apr 16, 2007)

Toad said:


> I would label myself a feel player. Feel is key to me and my game. That said, I have become a MUCH better player when I studied the swing mechanically. The talk of swing planes etc always confused me, that is until I started connecting technical terms with feelings.


Connecting technical terms with feelings is the real key, not only to play the game at it's highest level...but also to teach it at the highest level. Whether for the player or teacher it's not the easiest thing to do which can play havoc with the mind when trying to shoot a low score on the course and having too much complex stuff that you're thinking about or trying to analyze when hitting. 

Most everyone that responded to this thread talked about the importance of feel and how you want to learn or play. Yet, why are so many mid to high handicap golfers talking technical stuff to each other? Why are so many teachers on TGC and at golf courses talking about shaft positions every single inch of the swing, angles, planes, etc. Why do many players who go to a pro for lessons tell THE PRO in the beginning what they need to work on or fix based on some unrelated complex instructor they heard on TV or saw in a book?

It just seems to me like most golfers and teachers aren't leaning in the direction of feel when getting lessons or giving lessons. For a professional giving lessons that absolutely knows the technical end of it bacwards and forward, the greatest challenge to him/her is to make it simple and express it through a sensation or feeling.

In my opinion, one of THE WORST teachers early on was David Leadbetter because he was sooooo technical when expressing what he had in knowledge to his student, that he was teaching them to become HIM as an analyst/teacher instead of the consummate player. They can't see and think about what HE thinks about when actually playing.
A player needs to feel and react. Leadbetter has gotten much better recently and is now converting what he knows into feel sensations to his students, whether a PGA pro or an amateur. Somehow or another Faldo got good with all of the complex stuff, but most blow out.

If you want to read the most technical book on the planet regarding the swing, read and try to comprehend The Golfing Machine by Homer Kelley. It's brilliant from a technical standpoint, absolutely brilliant! Unfortunately it could turn you into a head case and basket case like it did to Bobby Clampett. Just for starters, G.O.L.F. stands for Geometrically Oriented Linear Force if that's any kind of tipoff where you might be going.

Should every professional out there study and know most of the concepts in this book? Absolutely! It will guide a teacher to break down a swing in a zillion different areas and pick problematic areas out that he may never have thought about. But he damn well better not relay that to the student/player. 

But once again...why are so many amateurs talking about the swing or trying to help their buddies swing through technical means?


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## BrianMcG (Apr 7, 2007)

Lead,

I know exactly what you mean about Leadbetter. When I was a Senior in High School my long time instructor changed from more of a feel and basic fundamentals teacher to trying to teach Leadbetter. 

I got so F%$#ed up it started me on a downward spiral from a second-team all state golfer with a college scholarship to barely being able to get the ball airborn. I should have left him earlier, but I had a lot of trust in him from what he had taught me before.

I have read the Golf Machine. It made my head hurt. 

A great book I would suggest to you that you would enjoy is "Swing Like A Pro" by Ralph Mann. Amazon.com: Swing Like a Pro: Books: Ralph Mann
Excerpt:
"This book is the result of 17 years of research on the mechanics of the golf swing. The objective was to determine how the professionals make the swing look so simple, when in reality, according to the authors, it is a complex series of motions: the setup, the grip, the backswing, the downswing. Mann, an expert in biomechanics and founder of CompuSport, and golf pro Griffin have developed a composite of over 100 of the world's top golfers, creating a computer-generated image a virtual golf pro that is featured throughout the book. Easy to read and with an assortment of photos, Swing Like a Pro is a useful reference source golfers will enjoy."


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## fitz-uk (Apr 28, 2006)

Lead Tape said:


> But once again...why are so many amateurs talking about the swing or trying to help their buddies swing through technical means?


Are you referring to this site?

If so, then the best way to explain it would be as follows.

This website is an online commumity for golfers of all standards to come together to talk about anything from what tee's they use to what golf presents they got bought at Christmas. 

If someone asks for help, they are asking the community as a whole. I dont know of any one person on here arragant enough to say "I am totally right, you are doing this wrong, change this and you will drop 5 shots from your handicap". When people ask for help they get helpful suggestions from their online friends.

If the forum only allowed professional golfers to answer their questions then this place would die over night. I think you will find that most people are on here because of their love of the game and not because they hold serious aspirations to becoming the next Tiger Woods, because their slice was corrected by a post made by joe bloggs in the "tips" section.

If the quote I have highlighted is directed towards this site then to be quite frank, I find that sort of input to be very unhealthy towards the site and its community. It also shows a great deal of arragance on your behalf. I assume then from your tone that you are a golf proffessional, and when learning the game you never watched your friends hit golf balls and offer suggestions if asked?

Alternatively, if you are not referring to this site, and I have got the wrong end of the stick then I hope you dont take offence to what I have posted.


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## fitz-uk (Apr 28, 2006)

Oh and in answer to your original question, 

I would rather see fact, i.e. swing plane on video and physical proof of what I am doing wrong or right to help me achieve a better standard of golf.

Which is what my pro does for me.

Someone telling me that I was not standing upright enough wasnt good enough for me when it 'felt' right. I needed to see posture and it was a lot easier to understand and correct through visual aids.


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## white_tiger_137 (Mar 23, 2006)

You could study every millisecond of the golf swing. You could know the bleeding-edge theories on where the club should be, but if you can't feel where YOUR club is, it really doesn't matter. If your body knows what a good swing should feel like, you don't have to consiously insruct your muscles. However, I think a basic understanding of swing mechanics is necessary to make tiny adjustments during your round.


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## jump15vc (Jul 30, 2006)

This thread is irrelevant since neither way will make you a tour pro, you need a mix of both to see any real improvement. the guys that are saying they're scratch golfers and only work on feel are either lying about their true abilities or dont realize the technical aspect of the game and want to sound "progressive" and "alternative" by getting away from proper swing mechanics. If you dont have an understanding of what a good golf swing should look like it doesnt matter what you feel, since feel is a subjective thought. What feels good and what is actually good are two different things entirely. you cant play at a high level with any consistency without a fundamentally sound swing. people will always say the (some pro) has an ugly swing but when you break it down they do a lot of mechanically sound things to allow them to play well. Jim Furyk may not have the prettiest swing but he has great tempo and attacks the ball from the inside to produce a consistent draw.

When i first started working with my swing coach we worked on improving my fundamentals and building a consistent, repeatable swing that would hold up under pressure. With my mechanics at a point that i understood what i was doing with my swing and why, we were able to focus on more abstract, feelings that would further improve my game. I hate sounding like a braggart but mechanically speaking i have a very good swing, which has made me the player i am. Feel is not the end-all be-all of golf, if it were tiger would not have changed his swing and leadbetter and harmon would be out of work. if any of you guys that believe that feel is so much more important that mechanics and that feel will make up for crap mechanics are ever in New Jersey ill prove you wrong plain and simple. you can have all the feel in the world but without sound mechanics you'll get worked over by a better golfer


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## mkoreiwo (Jan 8, 2007)

Lead tape put it very well "connecting technical terms with feelings". I love the "science" of golf, but overall, it is feeling that is what I would like to take to the course. That way I can avoid overthiking, analysis, etc. . So really it is a combination of the two.


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