# About Counterfeit Golf Clubs



## 373

Dear Friends,

Counterfeit golf clubs are a serious problem to the club making industry. As moderators, we delete at least one post a week for someone who joins this forum and tries to advertise counterfeit clubs, often with the help of friends or associates who claim to have purchased from the site in the ad, saying they got good value for their money.

Sorry, no... It's not going to happen here.

Here's the link to a site now enjoined by some major American club manufacturers who are determined to eradicate fake clubs. It's a huge uphill battle. I highly recommend you read the brief amount of information from the site. It will only take a couple minutes of your time, but it will enlighten you like never before.

Fake Counterfeit Golf Clubs - Cleveland Golf Balls, Srixon Golf Equipment, Never Compromise Golf, Taylor Made Golf Bags

To Add to that a note to anyone thinking of spamming

Are you about to post something that includes an ad? Forget it. I'll find it and change your link to something as silly as I can find.

Are you trying to sell counterfeit clubs? Don't bother. And don't think you could pay the administration to advertise. Illegally manufactured clone clubs will not be talked about or advertised. If you got a good deal on a fake club, keep it to yourself because I'll delete your post and consider banning you from the forum.

Take my word for something. I'm retired, I'm bored and I have nothing better to do with my time than make a spammer's life miserable. 

It's been agreed between me, some of the other moderators and the administration that we simply aren't going to tolerate anything even remotely suspicious. If we allowed an ad for clubs at questionable prices to stay in a post, it might look like this forum condones the illegal copying of clubs with registered patents.

We aren't going to let this happen.

Have a nice day. 

================================================== ===============================

Stretch seemed to like my "bad attitude" and offered a simpler version for your consideration...

He does not like green eggs and ham and does not like to see anyone post spam.
He does not like it here or there, he does not like it anywhere.
Not in shots of clubs or played today, not in any thread you say.
Not with your morning cup of joe, not before you gotta go.
Not in sticky's or threads, not right before you go to bed.
Not in a sig or the body, this applies to everybody.
Not in PM's or replies, if you have to ask why oh my.
We do not like to see your spam, it will end up in the trash can!
================================================== ================================

Stretch - You're a poet, but you don't know it... Though your feet show it... They're Longfellows...


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## TKroll

*Knock off clubs*

I can understand club makers problem with knock off clubs, but I have another concern. It seems that except for PING all clubs are now made in China, with components being made in Viet Nam and other places, with assembly done in Mexico and other countries. They say that labor and government regulations prevent them from producing products here in the US. Consequently, they go where labor is cheap, regulations are non-existent and quality control is sketchy. All this and club prices are still the same or more than PING and all the jobs are NOT HERE. I have no sympathy for the club makers, they have outsourced the making of clubs to low cost manufacturers, like others have, and forgotten to pass on that savings to their customers. You call them American club manufactures, but that is in name only. How is this justified ?


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## 373

You are playing a game of semantics. You are correct that most of the clubheads are made overseas, but the companies whose names are on those clubs are American companies... Titleist, Cobra, Callaway, Taylormade...

Part of the counterfeit problem that has been stopped to a larger extent than real counterfeits is the side where a worker in the factory that makes the real clubheads steals one head a day until he has enough for a set. Then he gets someone to put shafts and grips in them and sells them for as much as his annual salary. Metal detectors and such have been installed at many of the legitimate factories to insure their workers aren't walking off with clubheads every day.


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## TKroll

I think the semantics are on both sides of our conversation and you bring up an interesting point. These workers can take a few clubs and earn a years salary, yet they are paid a few cents or dollars to produce the clubs. Is this Capitalism or exploitation?
So, as I mentioned, I have no sympathy for the "American" club makers. They would do some good for themselves and the country if they brought their operations back home and truly became American manufacturing companies.


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## 373

Since I play Pings, I guess I look at things somewhat differently, but while my G15 irons are completely American made, my understanding is, the wood heads and hybrid heads are made overseas.

Firstly, it's capitalism that makes the club companies search for profit by reducing their costs. The fact that it's become America's problem, (shipping jobs overseas), has been by government trade agreements as much as by virtue of individual companies looking for market share. The blame is probably equal.

Secondly, the exploitation is on the part of the foreign manufacturer. Their workers would be paid no better whether they were making golf equipment or tractor parts. The fact our American manufacturers took advantage of it... well go back to the first paragraph I guess. They justify it by profit motive to their shareholders.

And I agree. It would be nice to see the American manufacturers bring those jobs home. Contrary to your feelings though, I have sympathy for the American factories, probably because I was an economist by education.

I feel like some American worker would be happy to have the job making those heads. What I'm not sure of is whether the cost of the clubs would rise to the point that only the rich could afford them. The effort to bring golf to the masses might mean foreign manufactured clubheads are the only way to keep things cost effective. To some extent, without the distribution network being reduced, it's a bit of a Catch 22.


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## Fourputt

TKroll said:


> I think the semantics are on both sides of our conversation and you bring up an interesting point. These workers can take a few clubs and earn a years salary, yet they are paid a few cents or dollars to produce the clubs. Is this Capitalism or exploitation?
> So, as I mentioned, I have no sympathy for the "American" club makers. They would do some good for themselves and the country if they brought their operations back home and truly became American manufacturing companies.


And then you won't be able to afford to buy them anyway. People like you who complain about outsourcing seem to forget that those products made overseas then have import duty and excise taxes added to the increased shipping costs to bring the profit margin down to a reasonable level. Don't you really think that if TaylorMade could undercut Ping by $200 for an equivalent set of irons they would??? If they could reduce their profit per set while selling two or three times as many sets, they'd jump at it. And the others would have to reduce prices or go out of business. Would you prefer it if TM or Callaway ran Ping into bankruptcy? 

Exploitation? Those clubmaking contracts provide jobs for people at a pay rate commensurate with other such jobs in those countries. I don't really care if they are American, Indonesian, or Chinese - they are still people who need to work to live and put food on the table for their families. Most of those foundries and machine shops make clubheads on a contract basis, meaning that they do other things too. It's not like the US has built factories overseas, they've just made use of resources which were already available. If American workers and unions hadn't priced themselves out of the market, those jobs might still be here, but like so many service jobs are these days, they'd be served by illegal immigrants because Americans would be too special to do such work for such a poor pay scale. 

And by the way, I was a union machinist for 33 years, so I have some expertise in that area. When the auto workers were trying to put their companies out of business screwing nuts and bolts together for $17 an hour, machinists like myself who were skilled tradesmen were making $10 or less. Life isn't fair, and pricing and wages are set by the principles of supply and demand. Every time the auto workers went on strike, the public outcry got them what they wanted because Americans couldn't live without a new car every other year. Of course, they had to buy cars that often because the auto makers had to cut corners and quality to keep them affordable. Then when Japan offered a better product for a lower price, the government stepped in and put a ridiculous excise tax on the imports to protect those overpaid auto workers. Eventually the house of cards that they built on a quagmire of corruption and graft collapsed and then the government gives them our tax dollars as a bailout to save those jobs. Not because of outsourcing, but because they couldn't see two feet past their rose colored glasses. 

Faced with a similar situation, many US manufacturers have since moved some or all of their heavy manufacturing overseas, not for increased profits, but for survival. I was fortunate enough to work for a company which actually made a product which we sold around the world. It was such high precision work that it was difficult to find an Asian company which could even make spare parts for us to stock our Far East parts distributors. We tried to do so to cut shipping costs, but Chinese machine shops and machinists simply weren't up to the task. Golf clubs mostly just require casting or forge stamping out the heads, then some minor milling on the faces and cleaning up and polishing. Simple tasks which can be done just about any place where metal working facilities are available. Much of the club assembly is still done here.


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## TKroll

Your rant just shows a naive thought process, that unfortunately is prevalent in one of the political parties (two if you count the Tea Party as legitimate). Taking jobs from workers here in America and outsourcing for nothing other than profit should be considered a act contrary to what America is about. Isn't it wonderful that these companies feed people of other countries while US citizens go hungry and look for work, and that they pay subsistence wages for work, well what more can we ask of them. 

If PING can be competitive, pay decent wages, provide good working conditions, make a quality product and also make a profit, why can't Taylor Made, Callaway and the others do so with work here in the US?

And don't use the old/tired, blame it on the Unions story. The Unions have gone through major changes in past years, they have worked with employers and scaled back on bargaining issues. Before Unions, workers were little more than interchangeable parts for employers, you should know that.

If employers outsource all of their work to other countries, what are American workers to do? Not everyone can own/run a business, not everyone is destine for higher education, many workers just want to work hard and be paid a living wage...what do these workers do ?


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## 373

TKroll - I started this thread to reflect the forum management's attitude that ads for counterfeit clubs wouldn't be tolerated and to give some definition to what they are.

When someone takes a thread to a political direction and starts approaching name calling, it's not going to be tolerated, at least not by this mod.


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## TKroll

I can agree with that.


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## 373

TKroll said:


> I can agree with that.


Thanks - Something told me you were a good guy!

Maybe I missed it, but have you written anything in the introductions area? Tell us a bit about yourself...


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## Fourputt

TKroll said:


> Your rant just shows a naive thought process, that unfortunately is prevalent in one of the political parties (two if you count the Tea Party as legitimate). Taking jobs from workers here in America and outsourcing for nothing other than profit should be considered a act contrary to what America is about. Isn't it wonderful that these companies feed people of other countries while US citizens go hungry and look for work, and that they pay subsistence wages for work, well what more can we ask of them.
> 
> If PING can be competitive, pay decent wages, provide good working conditions, make a quality product and also make a profit, why can't Taylor Made, Callaway and the others do so with work here in the US?
> 
> And don't use the old/tired, blame it on the Unions story. The Unions have gone through major changes in past years, they have worked with employers and scaled back on bargaining issues. Before Unions, workers were little more than interchangeable parts for employers, you should know that.
> 
> If employers outsource all of their work to other countries, what are American workers to do? Not everyone can own/run a business, not everyone is destine for higher education, many workers just want to work hard and be paid a living wage...what do these workers do ?


I don't argue that unions once served a purpose, but they have outlived their usefulness when their actions threaten the survival of the companies their workers are employed by - when it becomes more about power and greed than any actual needed benefit to the members. I've seen it first hand, so you can't tell me that I'm just touting the conservative party line. I've watched unions protect unqualified or just plain lazy "workers" simply because they are paid up members. Many unions make it nearly impossible for an employer to get rid of an inefficient worker as long as he shows up and puts in his time, regardless of the quality or quantity of his work. And those who are willing to work are forced shoulder that much more of the job. My company made a lot of changes over the years, and they resulted in more work being done more efficiently by fewer workers. That was how we kept costs at a level where we were competitive - in reality we became the world leader in the product we manufactured. We outsourced some parts production, but only to US manufacturers, not overseas unless those parts were being warehoused as spare parts to be used in that region. We had such a setup in Europe, where many of the spares used in European facilities were also made in European shops. 

But that has nothing to do with counterfeit clubs. Counterfeits are made with cheaper materials, poor quality control, and break every patent and copyright law in the world. This site does a service to the golf world by preventing those thieves from hawking their wares here, and I try to do my part in deleting links and threads made by those people.


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## PGATeacher

I am the owner of The Reno Tahoe Golf Academy and mostly give golf lessons, but I do sell equipment. I suffered from counterfeit golf clubs from carrying Nike equipment. I could not compete with the online pricing from ebay and others as a result of counterfeit clubs. Nike would not do anything to help. I bought clubs at wholesale and they were for sale for less than I paid for them. Could not compete. This is a real problem and if the industry stands by and does nothing about it, they won't be around much longer.


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## 373

That's exactly why the pro shop where I work won't carry inventory. Same problem and you can't get a guy who paid so little for his clone clubs to believe he got screwed.


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## 373

Thank you Kathy. I mod here and also at a 55,000 member guitar forum and unbelievably, we actually have a bigger problem with unpaid ads here. The counterfeit club sellers are a drop in the bucket compared to some things we get rid of.

One of these days we'll figure out how to corral those guys, or, hoping against hope, maybe they will finally get smart and stop trying when they realize we are very good at seeing through them and deleting their ads within minutes of them hitting our forums.

Thanks again...
Dennis


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## Turbotater

Fourputt said:


> I don't argue that unions once served a purpose, but they have outlived their usefulness when their actions threaten the survival of the companies their workers are employed by - when it becomes more about power and greed than any actual needed benefit to the members. I've seen it first hand, so you can't tell me that I'm just touting the conservative party line. I've watched unions protect unqualified or just plain lazy "workers" simply because they are paid up members. Many unions make it nearly impossible for an employer to get rid of an inefficient worker as long as he shows up and puts in his time, regardless of the quality or quantity of his work. And those who are willing to work are forced shoulder that much more of the job. My company made a lot of changes over the years, and they resulted in more work being done more efficiently by fewer workers. That was how we kept costs at a level where we were competitive - in reality we became the world leader in the product we manufactured. We outsourced some parts production, but only to US manufacturers, not overseas unless those parts were being warehoused as spare parts to be used in that region. We had such a setup in Europe, where many of the spares used in European facilities were also made in European shops.
> 
> But that has nothing to do with counterfeit clubs. Counterfeits are made with cheaper materials, poor quality control, and break every patent and copyright law in the world. This site does a service to the golf world by preventing those thieves from hawking their wares here, and I try to do my part in deleting links and threads made by those people.


Hi Guys, I'm new to the forum and possibly a bit naive to the rules and regs of this forum. Last month, I posted some pics of my putter on the Photos of Your Clubs thread in the General Forum.
I noticed today my post is gone. Did it possibly get thrown out as counterfeit or did I possibly violate a rule or something of the sort?
Thanks,
Wayde


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## Cajun

It was removed because of the retail link in the post. Pictures are ok, but a link to someplace that sells the putter is not.


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## Turbotater

Ok, Thanks.
I did it again. lol
A guy on another thread was looking for a putter and I posted the website.
Other forums I'm involved with let us post websites.
Sorry, won't do it again.


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## broken tee

*I don't want the shaft*



lancelsoldes said:


> I can understand club makers problem with knock off clubs, but I have another concern.
> 
> What is your concern  I've found that clubs do matter, when I started 11 or 12 years ago I used low end clubs. I found that I loved the challenge golf gives and went to a brand named manufacturer and by my standards I greatly improved. I'm now ready to upgrade and I don't want fakes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________


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## 373

This morning on Morning Drive, (7 AM EST on the Golf Channel), there was an interesting segment about counterfeit clubs.

Morning Drive Equipment Avoid Buying Counterfeit Clubs | Golf Channel


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## john_n

i think any type of counterfeit is an insult to the manufacturers of any product and to the consumers, it is not for no reason that something has its price and value and then some con tries to fake "reproduce" the same for a cheaper price,much respect to the thread


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## broken tee

john_n said:


> i think any type of counterfeit is an insult to the manufacturers of any product and to the consumers, it is not for no reason that something has its price and value and then some con tries to fake "reproduce" the same for a cheaper price,much respect to the thread


DennisM has really been a driving force to inform players about these clubs. Welcome to the forum.


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## john_n

broken tee said:


> DennisM has really been a driving force to inform players about these clubs. Welcome to the forum.


yes i noticed DennisM is really very active on various threads:thumbsup: 

thank you for the welcome, just popped in to see whAz up here, my daughter has birthday so we are celebrating and she can't keep off the Ipad she got, you guys have fun here without me today, see you all in a bit, oh and by the way whoever helps me to improve my swing more gets a piece of the birthday cake


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## broken tee

john_n said:


> yes i noticed DennisM is really very active on various threads:thumbsup:
> 
> thank you for the welcome, just popped in to see whAz up here, my daughter has birthday so we are celebrating and she can't keep off the Ipad she got, you guys have fun here without me today, see you all in a bit, oh and by the way whoever helps me to improve my swing more gets a piece of the birthday cake



I'll take two slices. CAKE!:laugh:


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