# Slow play



## Big Hobbit

Got into a discussion earlier today about slow play, etiquette and golf club admin. Maybe I'm just getting old and need to take a look at my own values/opinions.

Scenario 1) I say more than 4 hours for a round is excessive, and maybe players need to ask themselves is there a need look at their pre-shot routines so that they are ready to play as soon as it is their turn.

The response; why can't it take more than 4 hours for a round, and why should I change my pre-shot routine?

Scenario 2) I say as soon as it becomes apparent that your ball isn't in view you need to wave the group behind through.

The response; but they'll be looking for a ball in a few holes time, so why wave them through?

The discussion then moved onto me saying that slow play, and rounds of over 4 hours, is killing the game. And the lack of etiquette when balls are lost is causing a lot of frustration. At this point I was asked why golf club adminstrators haven't moved with the times and learned that expectations on the pace of play, provisional balls and waving through is changing. 

Do I need to take a step back and review my beliefs, or would I just be abdicating responsibility in accepting the "new way?" I'll be honest, I'm open to change and maybe some of the old ways need revamping but I'm at a loss when it comes to what and how? :dunno:

Maybe its time I was put out to pasture.


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## keiko

My #1 complaint is slow play. I have belonged to private clubs for many years and the management tolerates slow play for fear of offending less skilled members. I hate playing in groups or teams because often it takes 3 hours per round-and of course they have to stop for lunch in between-it's just stupid and a waste of time.
I only play early mornings or later in afternoons when I can play in under 3 hours. When I am obligated to play in tournaments, I dread it like the plague.
Even my wife and I can play in under 3 hours so why can't everyone else.
Stick to your guns, it's guys like us who maybe some day will change the slow play routines. 

QUOTE=Big Hobbit;52091]Got into a discussion earlier today about slow play, etiquette and golf club admin. Maybe I'm just getting old and need to take a look at my own values/opinions.

Scenario 1) I say more than 4 hours for a round is excessive, and maybe players need to ask themselves is there a need look at their pre-shot routines so that they are ready to play as soon as it is their turn.

The response; why can't it take more than 4 hours for a round, and why should I change my pre-shot routine?

Scenario 2) I say as soon as it becomes apparent that your ball isn't in view you need to wave the group behind through.

The response; but they'll be looking for a ball in a few holes time, so why wave them through?

The discussion then moved onto me saying that slow play, and rounds of over 4 hours, is killing the game. And the lack of etiquette when balls are lost is causing a lot of frustration. At this point I was asked why golf club adminstrators haven't moved with the times and learned that expectations on the pace of play, provisional balls and waving through is changing. 

Do I need to take a step back and review my beliefs, or would I just be abdicating responsibility in accepting the "new way?" I'll be honest, I'm open to change and maybe some of the old ways need revamping but I'm at a loss when it comes to what and how? :dunno:

Maybe its time I was put out to pasture.[/QUOTE]


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## FrogsHair

To me, slow play when it happens, is just another part of the game. I don't care for it, but I don't let effect my play by letting it aggravate me. The golfer who puts up an unusually high number, then blames it on slow play, just does not know how to handle the slower pace. In some instances it just gives the golfer an excuse to play poorly. The golfer gets to bottle neck and self defeats himself by saying "there goes my score today". Yes, slow play can hurt a golfer's tempo, timing, and rhythm, which can throw them off their game. However, slow play is just another condition of the play in this game. Much like un-repaired divots. If the golfer lets anything other than their own golf swing effect how they play, that's their own deal. 

A good pre-shot routine in the best answer for a longer than normal waiting time between shots. Another good cure is for individuals to play "ready golf" when ever possible. I tell folks I am going to golf with on the first tee that I intend to play ready golf. It's never been a problem. Don't get me wrong as I am 100% for course etiquette, but ready golf does have an important place when it comes to amateur pace of play. Ready Golf - Definition of Ready Golf 

Using one's ESC can also help with slow play. If your ESC for a hole is 7 shots, pick your ball up after the 7th shot, and move on to the next hole. So what if you are still 100 yards form the green after 7 shots. :dunno: Of course if you want to shoot a 12+ for that same hole, be my guest. 

Here's another way to look at it. Most slow play is caused by the higher handicap golfer. If these golfers were not allowed to play at their slow pace, golfers who play faster would have to absorb the slower golfers' lost revenue. This in the form of higher green fees.

Lost balls due to errant shots do cause a lot of slow play, but I also see more time wasted on greens by golfers who spend too much time trying to read putts, which they usually miss anyway. Playing ready golf on a green? What a concept to speed up play. 

I don't think golf courses will ever enforce pace of play for the simple fact that if their course marshals chastise these slower golfers, they are going to take their money and go some where else. We are back to lost revenue, and possible higher greens' fees again. 

There have been times when I had only a few hours of time to play. Because of the my own time restraints, I knew from the start I was only going to get in 15-16 holes, so that's all I played.


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## keiko

Slow play is poor management, ie. lazy/timid course rangers and management; players who don't know or care about what they are doing and who are disrespectful, selfish, slobs; and, the lack of education on TV-they drone on and on about technique but never dare address etiquette.
I have seen some low handicap players who are very, very slow as if they are pretending they are pro's, you know the type, 3 or 4 practice swings, taking club after club in and out of the bag, plumb bobbing putts while walking around the green, chatting with their buds on tees, waiting until the group in front is on the green before teeing off. I have never used slow play as an excuse and anyone that does is kidding themselves; however, slow play is the one single negative game element that has yet to be addressed anywhere.

QUOTE=FrogsHair;52094]To me, slow play when it happens, is just another part of the game. I don't care for it, but I don't let effect my play by letting it aggravate me. The golfer who puts up an unusually high number, then blames it on slow play, just does not know how to handle the slower pace. In some instances it just gives the golfer an excuse to play poorly. The golfer gets to bottle neck and self defeats himself by saying "there goes my score today". Yes, slow play can hurt a golfer's tempo, timing, and rhythm, which can throw them off their game. However, slow play is just another condition of the play in this game. Much like un-repaired divots. If the golfer lets anything other than their own golf swing effect how they play, that's their own deal. 

A good pre-shot routine in the best answer for a longer than normal waiting time between shots. Another good cure is for individuals to play "ready golf" when ever possible. I tell folks I am going to golf with on the first tee that I intend to play ready golf. It's never been a problem. Don't get me wrong as I am 100% for course etiquette, but ready golf does have an important place when it comes to amateur pace of play. Ready Golf - Definition of Ready Golf 

Using one's ESC can also help with slow play. If your ESC for a hole is 7 shots, pick your ball up after the 7th shot, and move on to the next hole. So what if you are still 100 yards form the green after 7 shots. :dunno: Of course if you want to shoot a 12+ for that same hole, be my guest. 

Here's another way to look at it. Most slow play is caused by the higher handicap golfer. If these golfers were not allowed to play at their slow pace, golfers who play faster would have to absorb the slower golfers' lost revenue. This in the form of higher green fees.

Lost balls due to errant shots do cause a lot of slow play, but I also see more time wasted on greens by golfers who spend too much time trying to read putts, which they usually miss anyway. Playing ready golf on a green? What a concept to speed up play. 

I don't think golf courses will ever enforce pace of play for the simple fact that if their course marshals chastise these slower golfers, they are going to take their money and go some where else. We are back to lost revenue, and possible higher greens' fees again. 

There have been times when I had only a few hours of time to play. Because of the my own time restraints, I knew from the start I was only going to get in 15-16 holes, so that's all I played. [/QUOTE]


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## stevel1017

We all suffer from slow play. At our home course the problem is the new golfers and the high handicap golfers.
A few courses in our area have closed, putting more players on our course. Most of these players belong on an executive course, but I do realize they bring in revenue. So my wife and I wait until later afternoon to play, when we usually can move right along. My solution for my league play (where we have a few golfers with 40+ handicaps) is to go off first. Then my waiting time is spent at the 19th hole.


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## Big Hobbit

On the slow play issue; I don't mind slow play in the group in front if they do the decent thing and recognise that the group behind are waiting on almost every shot. Hell, I don't care if they take 6 hours to go round providing they give consideration to those who prefer to play quicker. If there's a slow player in the group I'm in it just means I have more time to be ready for my shot, and he doesn't impact much on the overall time for the round anyway.

Not waving the group behind through, making them wait isn't good etiquette and worse is after making them wait a player goes back drops a ball and plays without offering the group behind the opportunity to go through. That's something thats becoming more prevalent and contributes further to slow play too.

From my point of view I don't care whether you shoot 70 or 100+ I'm more interested in having some good banter but not at the expense of good etiquette.


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## phil brown

One of the main causes of slow play in my opinion is evaluating skills too highly. People that have teed off and gone 180-200 yards then wait until a 450yard par four green clears in case they hit that Tiger woods shot. Which they are not capable of. when you have played the game several times you should know your distance or even if you are capable of hitting that long iron/3wood as far as the green. I don't want players getting injured but some common sense should prevail. perhaps when you sign in to tee off the time should be there, then, when you finish sign out and write the time. This way the club could see that you are a slow four ball and enforce that you play in two two's???

It is however difficult to say an amateur is playing too slowly when the pro's, who have distance charts and caddies telling them how far to hit it, take sometimes over 5 hours. I believe that Padraig Harrington has been 'on the clock' a number of times.


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## Fourputt

Big Hobbit said:


> On the slow play issue; I don't mind slow play in the group in front if they do the decent thing and recognise that the group behind are waiting on almost every shot. Hell, I don't care if they take 6 hours to go round providing they give consideration to those who prefer to play quicker. If there's a slow player in the group I'm in it just means I have more time to be ready for my shot, and he doesn't impact much on the overall time for the round anyway.
> 
> Not waving the group behind through, making them wait isn't good etiquette and worse is after making them wait a player goes back drops a ball and plays without offering the group behind the opportunity to go through. That's something thats becoming more prevalent and contributes further to slow play too.
> 
> From my point of view I don't care whether you shoot 70 or 100+ I'm more interested in having some good banter but not at the expense of good etiquette.


I can't agree with you. From my point of view that one very slow group is simply not acceptable. On a busy course, NO group can be allowed to be that slow. They simply cannot hang back and let group after group play through. They are nothing but a rolling road block which slows down the entire golf course. All players need to be made aware of the need for a good place of play, and to be informed about the procedures for accomplishing that goal. One thing I've observed about slow players is that most of them don't even realize that they are slow. Education, not accommodation is what is required. 

This doesn't mean you have to play speed golf. For a group of 4 average players, 4 to 4 hours and 20 minutes is acceptable. On some courses even 4½ hours is reasonable - it isn't ideal, but it's acceptable. I've played courses which simply have too many hurdles to negotiate to expect the average player to make his best time on them, but that doesn't preclude making the attempt to play without undue delay. The key to good pace of play on any golf course is simply to maintain pace with the group in front of you. Being even a half hole behind is NOT keeping pace. If every group followed such a questionable policy, then too many rounds would be 6 hours long. 

A decent rule of thumb is to average an absolute maximum of 15 minutes per hole. This is not a target, it's a maximum, and it's easy to figure out. That's 4 holes an hour, and it's an easy pace to play to. If you are taking longer than that and you are out of touch with the group in front of you then you are the problem, and on a well run course you can expect a visit from the ranger.

Here are a few tips (and don't be afraid to offer counsel to players who need it):

1. Don't get hung up on playing honors or waiting to the player who's away to play first. If you are ready and you aren't aren't making anyone else wait, then play your shot.
2. Whenever possible, be getting ready for your shot while others are playing theirs. This means get your distance info; check the lie; check the wind; select your club, and be as ready as you can be when it's your turn.
3. Wait to write scores until you are on the next tee. Park your cart or bag as near as possible to the line to the next tee. Don't dally around the green when players are waiting in the fairway.
4. Replace head covers, put clubs back in the bag, etc. after you are moving forward or have reached your ball, or are waiting for another player in your group to play. Little things like this can make the difference.
5. Go to your ball, don't walk to your mate's ball with him just because you don't want to interrupt your scintillating conversation. 
6. If sharing a cart, one player should drop off at his ball with a couple of appropriate clubs while the other one moves on to his own ball, or if reasonable, park the cart between the balls and both players walk to their balls. The more that players can be ready to play when it's their turn, the better will be the pace of the entire group. 

Get in the mindset of playing ready golf and these little things will become automatic.


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## Tim

I play to enjoy and relax. I am rushing around all day every day, I dont want to rush in golf. I want to relax and enjoy. I dont want to golf fast. 
I play in the afternoon for 2 reasons. It is more affordable, and there are less people. 
I will let you play through if you are faster than me, but dont be rude and start hitting into me. 
Some people are very rude and pushy and have a slanted view of what etiquette is.
I think EVERYONE needs to slow down a little bit. Whats your rush? Hurrying to your death? Relax a little. 
I think it would be nice if there were courses dedicated to fast playing golfers and courses dedicated to slow playing golfers.
And one last thought. Everyone should remember when they are starting to be impatient with that person thats in their way. You dont know how well grounded they are mentally and how violently they may react.


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## Fourputt

Tim said:


> I play to enjoy and relax. I am rushing around all day every day, I dont want to rush in golf. I want to relax and enjoy. I dont want to golf fast.
> I play in the afternoon for 2 reasons. It is more affordable, and there are less people.
> I will let you play through if you are faster than me, but dont be rude and start hitting into me.
> Some people are very rude and pushy and have a slanted view of what etiquette is.
> I think EVERYONE needs to slow down a little bit. Whats your rush? Hurrying to your death? Relax a little.
> I think it would be nice if there were courses dedicated to fast playing golfers and courses dedicated to slow playing golfers.
> And one last thought. Everyone should remember when they are starting to be impatient with that person thats in their way. You dont know how well grounded they are mentally and how violently they may react.


You don't have to rush to still play at a good pace. I never rush, but I don't dawdle either. When it's time to hit, I hit. When it's time to move, I move. When I have to wait, I make sure that I'm prepared and ready as soon as it's safe to hit. I take care of all of the incidentals while I'm waiting, I don't walk across the fairway and yak with my buddy, stand around picking my nose, or any of the myriad other things I see people do in front of me when they should be using that extra time to prepare.


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## keiko

I agree, I don't rush either but I like to play at a steady pace and I absolutely hate dawdlers and folks who pretend they are playing the Open or Masters, lining up and plumb bobbing putts, standing behind their ball in the fairway forever then finally getting at address only to take 3 or 4+ practice swings or what gets me upset is a group who wait until the folks in front of them are on the green before they tee off.
Most people have no clue; they are rude, disrespectful of others, and stupid. It's funny that one of the few games left supposed to have civility is full of people playing who are so rude and uncaring.



Fourputt said:


> You don't have to rush to still play at a good pace. I never rush, but I don't dawdle either. When it's time to hit, I hit. When it's time to move, I move. When I have to wait, I make sure that I'm prepared and ready as soon as it's safe to hit. I take care of all of the incidentals while I'm waiting, I don't walk across the fairway and yak with my buddy, stand around picking my nose, or any of the myriad other things I see people do in front of me when they should be using that extra time to prepare.


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## FrogsHair

Bottom line is everyone is going to try, and play at their own pace. Fast, average, or slow. We who don't care for it, can only piss, and moan about it on these forums. Slow play will never go away. They even have problems with it at professional tournaments. Pace of play is also a condition of play. Just like other playing conditions, the better golfer will adapt their game to it, for that round. 

3 hour rounds are too fast for me. That's not enough time for me to enjoy the round. 6 hour rounds are too slow for me, but I still make it a point to enjoy the outing. :thumbsup: Two of my best rounds I ever played were both over 5 hours long. Go figure. :dunno:


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## keiko

On this subject, you once again miss the point. It's a matter of inordinate wasting of time so as to hold up everyone else versus taking time to enjoy the game. God forbid we should deprive you of your enjoyment, just play the game the way it is supposed to be played and no one has a problem with that; purposefully wasting time in disrespect of everyone around you and everyone will always have a problem with that.
End of story.



FrogsHair said:


> Bottom line is everyone is going to try, and play at their own pace. Fast, average, or slow. We who don't care for it, can only piss, and moan about it on these forums. Slow play will never go away. They even have problems with it at professional tournaments. Pace of play is also a condition of play. Just like other playing conditions, the better golfer will adapt their game to it, for that round.
> 
> 3 hour rounds are too fast for me. That's not enough time for me to enjoy the round. 6 hour rounds are too slow for me, but I still make it a point to enjoy the outing. :thumbsup: Two of my best rounds I ever played were both over 5 hours long. Go figure. :dunno:


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## FrogsHair

I understand your point quite clearly. I'm not missing anything. My point is slow play is not ever going to go away. Golfers who pay their green fees will play as slow, or as fast as they want to. I can walk an empty 7000 yard golf course in about 3 hours, and enjoy myself. Others will enjoy the same course over a 6 hour period. I am not defending slow play. I don't like it either. It's just another condition of play, and should be considered as such when it occurs. Fortunately is does happen very much as it is to my way of thinking. 

My other point is golfers should not let slow play control their own scores, or use it as an excuse for a shooting a poor score. They need to adapt their game to it, much like they would in other abnormal playing conditions. 

Also, as far as I know, there is no specific golf USGA rule that states a golfer has to complete a stroke in a certain amount of time. That said, the "course committee" can adopt a pace of play policy with in certain requirements, that when a group is out of position and is being timed, each player in that group must play their shots within a certain amount seconds once they reach their ball. I am also aware of the un written accepted rule that a golf hole should be completed in 15+/- minutes. I would not hesitate to venture a guess that most of us on this forum have taken more than 15 minutes, with out interference from others, to complete a hole on more than one occasional. I know I have. 

Most, if not all golf courses (committees) have a pace of play requirement posted some where. However, very few will enforce the requirement. If it's not enforced,it becomes a rule of convenience, (non rule) and it should revert back to being a condition of play to save everyone a lot of grief. This brings up another point. If it were enforced, and a course marshal came up to the slow group of amateurs and said: "you are behind schedule, and you all need to assess yourselves a 1 shot penalty for slow play after being warned", you think the high handicapper will add that stroke? :rofl:

Here's a link that talks about slow play not being 100% of the golfer's fault. That the rules of golf themselves have some responsibility for slow play. 
The Sports Law Professor: Slow Play and the Rules of Golf

Enjoy the read. 











keiko said:


> On this subject, you once again miss the point. It's a matter of inordinate wasting of time so as to hold up everyone else versus taking time to enjoy the game. God forbid we should deprive you of your enjoyment, just play the game the way it is supposed to be played and no one has a problem with that; purposefully wasting time in disrespect of everyone around you and everyone will always have a problem with that.
> End of story.


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## Big Hobbit

The slow play issue certainly lights some candles. I agree that slow play will always be with us but that doesn't make it right. And I agree that there is an element of selfishness about it, i.e. "I've paid my money so stuff you" attitude. Why should a slow player feel its acceptable to spoil someone else's round by holding them up? The simple answer is stand aside then no one feels rushed and no one feels held up. In my opinion the only acceptable reasons for a round going over 4 hours is the difficulty of the course, adverse weather conditions or a relatively new starter in the group.

Once upon a time a round over 4 hours was virtually unheard of but nowadays many are talking about 4.25/4.5hour rounds as being acceptable. They're not acceptable unless you've got the course to yourself. 

My Sunday morning fourball takes between 3.25 and 3.5 hours. The ages of the four are 52, 65, 74, 78, with handicaps of 5,16,18,18. One has arthritis in the spine and right hip(52), one in the hands(78) and one has had both knees replaced(74). We don't rush round coz we can't rush round. All four use electric trolleys, and walk the course Par 72 6600 yds. We don't play "ready golf," which only hides the problem anyway. BUT we know when to play a provisional, and when to wave people through. We have the club out ready to play when its our turn, and we do the simple things like marking the card on the next tee not stood on the green we've just finished playing, and leaving our clubs in the right place for exiting the green.

Do the right things and you'll get round in less than 4 hours, and it won't feel like rushing.


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## broken tee

This doesn't happen too much on a private course but I've experienced this on public courses. A full tee time schedule and I mean every time slot full. Slow play will happen and there really is nothing a couse can do, its business.

Ateast 3 inches of snow fell this morning, the 30th of April, now this slows play up.


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## Fourputt

Big Hobbit said:


> The slow play issue certainly lights some candles. I agree that slow play will always be with us but that doesn't make it right. And I agree that there is an element of selfishness about it, i.e. "I've paid my money so stuff you" attitude. Why should a slow player feel its acceptable to spoil someone else's round by holding them up? The simple answer is stand aside then no one feels rushed and no one feels held up. In my opinion the only acceptable reasons for a round going over 4 hours is the difficulty of the course, adverse weather conditions or a relatively new starter in the group.
> 
> Once upon a time a round over 4 hours was virtually unheard of but nowadays many are talking about 4.25/4.5hour rounds as being acceptable. They're not acceptable unless you've got the course to yourself.
> 
> My Sunday morning fourball takes between 3.25 and 3.5 hours. The ages of the four are 52, 65, 74, 78, with handicaps of 5,16,18,18. One has arthritis in the spine and right hip(52), one in the hands(78) and one has had both knees replaced(74). We don't rush round coz we can't rush round. All four use electric trolleys, and walk the course Par 72 6600 yds. We don't play "ready golf," which only hides the problem anyway. BUT we know when to play a provisional, and when to wave people through. We have the club out ready to play when its our turn, and we do the simple things like marking the card on the next tee not stood on the green we've just finished playing, and leaving our clubs in the right place for exiting the green.
> 
> Do the right things and you'll get round in less than 4 hours, and it won't feel like rushing.


You are clearly in a different environment over there. Here it often IS acceptable to play in 4:30. The course I played on Friday even posted it as such. My home course posts 4:20 as the expected maximum allowable time. Both courses can certainly be played in less, but when the course posts a time, then some players simply set the pace by that time, and any suggestion that they could play faster is met with either shock or belligerence. The thought that there might be "right things" to do, or procedures to follow on the course is no part of their world.

We also have too many players who will never progress past the beginner stage, even if they play for 50 years. They will never bother to learn more than the barest rudiments of the rules, and often none of etiquette. Again, if it is suggested that they are deficient in their knowledge of the game, they will scoff at what they would call "technicalities". These are the kinds of people I deal with every Saturday and Sunday afternoon when I work in the starter booth. They think that a 2:00 tee time is when they should show up in the golf shop to pay their fees, instead of being when actually they should already be on the tee and hitting. As a result, if I haven't already given away their time to other walk-on players, then they are going to be late starting, and they spend their time on the course falling ever further behind. They can never comprehend why the ranger is on their case all the time. They think that they are playing as fast as possible. In a word, they are clueless, and unwilling to do anything to change that label.

This is what we deal with here. A golf course with tee times reserved every 9 minutes from 6 AM until 5 PM, and sprinkled throughout the course are players like this. How would you possibly expect the course to play in 4 hours? :dunno:


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## keiko

Does not matter what time a course is posted for play, as long as management and course rangers neglect the enforcement against slow play for fear they may PO someone or because they are just too darn lazy, the game will continue to suffer and so will we.
I pick times of the day here in florida where I know the probability of being held up is slim and most of the time I am not disappointed. 
Old and not so old fools with more money than brains are the bane of our game.


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## Golf Fan

*Slow Play*

I'm resigned to the fact that the issue of slow play on public courses is never going to go away. It's extremely rare, if ever, that a golfer will admit to being a slow player and therein lies the problem. Yes, there are many other facors involved in slow play but the bottom line that it's the players. How many slow players do you know and how many of them have you told, "you really need to pick up your pace a bit?" 

You'd be hard pressed to find a player that plays at a quicker pace than I do but I often play in groups with slow players. My personal philosophy is take all the time you need over a shot but get to your ball and be ready to play when it's your turn. I'm also all for "ready golf" but I've been nearly beaned on more than one occasion by a player playing ready golf that was ready to play but had no business hitting yet. My point is that if you're in a group that has one or more slow players you can help the cause by tactfully informing your friends/playing partners that they need to pick up the pace. If tactfully doesn't work, there are other more direct ways to get the message across. If you're unwilling to address the problem with your friends/playing partners then you have no right to complain about the problem because you are as much of the problem as the Dead Men Walking you play with.

No, I'm not suggesting you cause on course altercations, or lose friendships over the pace of play, but I am strongly suggesting that actions speak louder than words and if all of us that complain about slow play did a little something to correct the problem slow play wouldn't be such a problem.


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## broken tee

I don't disagree with anyones opinion here but it sure sounds like all of you are in a rush to have a heart attack if you don't meet a specific time playing golf. Golf is good stress reliever and I go out to relax. Sometimes its more relaxing when you run into group that had difficuty on a hole and got behind gives you chance to to blow a little smoke with your group. I'm not a great golfer but I'm not a slow player either so I just go out and play at the pace of the course if someone is being held up by me or the group we let them play through, generally a twosome, life is too short to let other players upset your game and not to sound like a smart A$$ chill its just a fun game enjoy it.


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## 373

I can forgive slow play for some reasons, but only up to a point when it's obvious they are not being held up themselves and should let the group behind them through. 

What I object to are groups that stay on a green, practice putting, write down their scores and have no manners to consider there is a group waiting on the tee, then excuse themselves by saying, "There's nowhere to go..." I get upset at fools like that when they are a foursome being held up by more foursomes and we are a twosome. Let me through and let me see if I can get through successive groups, but don't make that decision for me.

When we used to play at Calusa, before it closed, this was a problem. Now that we play at Killian Greens, we have noticed a smattering of more polite players there and for all the trouble there is to get into, it sure seems to move pretty well.


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## Tim

DennisM said:


> What I object to are groups that stay on a green, practice putting, write down their scores and have no manners to consider there is a group waiting on the tee, then excuse themselves by saying, "There's nowhere to go..." I get upset at fools like that when they are a foursome being held up by more foursomes and we are a twosome. Let me through and let me see if I can get through successive groups, but don't make that decision for me.


O.K. maybe we should define what slow play is because I consider myself a slow player, but it sounds like you guys are less angry about slow players and more angry at inconsiderate Aholes.
The examples you guys are bringing up sound more like people who fit my example of people who hit into you. Just self centered Dbags. It doesnt matter if they almost hit you, or if they are practice putting on the green after they are done, or when you let them play through because its only one guy he allows his 5 year old to hit a kids putter off the tee.
These are the same people who will pull out in front of you on the freeway and go 5 mph slower than you were going just because they didnt like following the car in front of them who is doing the same exact speed they are. 
Its people who had parents who taught them the entire universe revolves around them.


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## 373

Tim, without calling anyone names, without generalizing what makes some people play slowly and others not, I think what is at the root of a lot of slow play I have been behind is that inconsideration you pointed out in my earlier comments. I think it's hard to separate one from the other, a cause and effect thing.

On the other hand, there are other reasons someone might be slow, an older person walking who can't get around as fast as they used to... A group with children playing who tend to make them stop more frequently on the way to the green than otherwise... A inexperienced golfer new to the game who simply has to take more time to get around. Everyone who pays their money has the same right to be on the golf course that I do, but to whatever extent we can, we all simply need to be as aware of the people behind us as we are about the people in front of us. In other words, we all should also have a right to enjoy our time on the course without it being affected detrimentally by interminable waits on every tee and in every fairway.

The hope is, when anyone learns the game, they learn the rules and etiquette too. I would just as soon not have someone pushing me as slowing me down. I'd let them through. While I'm certainly no saint, I can't say a lot of people I know feel the same way as many of us seem to, good manners having been professed a number of times in this thread. Maybe it's just the heavy duty "me first" attitude of a lot of people who live around here, but there are a lot of people on the courses around here who act like nobody else is on the course when they are there.


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## Big Hobbit

Tim said:


> O.K. maybe we should define what slow play is because I consider myself a slow player, but it sounds like you guys are less angry about slow players and more angry at inconsiderate Aholes.


Tim, I think you've got closer to the point than the rest of us with your first line in your last post. I almost posted something on the back of Broken Tee's last post about how it was sounding like some were wanting to rush round along similar lines, "slow play" is just a label for a multitude of sins. 

Later today I'll be playing in a 4 ball competition at a time I rarely play at, and I'm expecting it to be around 4:15~4:30 hours. To be honest, although slower than I usually experience I'll probably be ok with it. And the reason I'll probably be ok with it is that in the main the guys on the course will be doing the right things. They won't be marking their cards on the green, or wandering aimlessly etc.

It comes down to the simple level of respect for others out there, and not spoiling someone else's game by doing something that falls outside the etiquette and Rules of Golf. And you are right in saying its generally the type of person who'd cut you up out on the road or push into a queue.

And at the end of the day its about enjoyment. No one will die, nations won't fall and a bit of give and take will make everyone happy. 

Keep swinging


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## Golf Fan

broken tee said:


> I don't disagree with anyones opinion here but it sure sounds like all of you are in a rush to have a heart attack if you don't meet a specific time playing golf......... life is too short to let other players upset your game...


I won't speak for the rest of the "all of you" group you lumped me into but I will say that rushing anywhere on a golf course just isn't in my bag. Unless of course, I'm racing against darkness, in which case, most everyone else is rushing as well. I play golf for the love of the game and the pleasure I get from being on the course, away from the stress of everyday life. I'm certainly not one to let others upset me on the course but that doesn't mean I have to like trying to play golf waiting 10 minutes to hit every shot. Sure, I've had holes where I've held up those behind me because I played poor shots but I understand that's simply part of the game. You can shoot 100 and still maintain a reasonable pace of play. 

Where I draw the line with slow play is when golfers take an inordinate amount of time getting to their ball and not being ready to hit when it's their turn. This type of "slow play" kills any semblance of pace and usually results in the long waits between shots that we all hate. I understand using time to socialize on the course and not rushing to play. I also understand that some players are faster/slower than others but there is no excuse for players of any skill or pace level not being respectful of their surroundings and knowing when to pick up the pace enough not to back up play on the entire course. 

BTW - There's also no excuse for the rabbits out there that think just because they play fast they have the right to play through your group and are looking to play through the multiple groups in front of you. 

My bottom line is I know when I go to the course that some days are going to be slower than others and I'm not going to have a coronary because my round took 4:45 instead of 4:30 but when I play a course that takes me 5+ hours to play I make it a point to let the pro know what's going on on his course. Slow play days happen but once a course gets a slow play reputation with me I don't go back. If more players followed suit, courses would get the message and take steps to keep a sensible pace of play.


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## Fourputt

Slow play is rarely caused by the length of time that a player takes to actaully hit the ball, or by how many times he has to hit the ball to get it in the hole. The worst slow play is caused by how much screwing around the guy does between shots, and leading up to making his stroke. If you know that you have a slow routine, then start it sooner. If your buddy is addressing his ball and you are in a position which won't bother him, then by all means, start your routine before he even hits. By the time he has made his swing, you will be halfway through your setup and you will have saved 20-30 seconds. 1/3 of a minute on half of your strokes can be a huge savings in overall time for a round. In 45 strokes you would have saved 15 minutes. And you still won't have to be rushing, you are simply being more efficient with what would otherwise be dead time. 

This is the sort of thing that every player should be thinking about on every shot. :thumbsup:


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## Big Hobbit

Fourputt said:


> Slow play is rarely caused by the length of time that a player takes to actaully hit the ball, or by how many times he has to hit the ball to get it in the hole. The worst slow play is caused by how much screwing around the guy does between shots, and leading up to making his stroke. If you know that you have a slow routine, then start it sooner. If your buddy is addressing his ball and you are in a position which won't bother him, then by all means, start your routine before he even hits. By the time he has made his swing, you will be halfway through your setup and you will have saved 20-30 seconds. 1/3 of a minute on half of your strokes can be a huge savings in overall time for a round. In 45 strokes you would have saved 15 minutes. And you still won't have to be rushing, you are simply being more efficient with what would otherwise be dead time.
> 
> This is the sort of thing that every player should be thinking about on every shot. :thumbsup:


That's pretty much spot on, and perhaps the point many people miss. If players can shave just 5 secs a shot by being ready, then a fourball will save the 15 mins you talk about - just *5 secsonds per player. And then if you include where you leave your bag when you get to the green, and when to mark your card.

That's the thick end of 30 mins saved of a round without walking any faster. No coronary, no sweating and breathing hard. Its that easy*


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## Tim

That all makes alot of sense.
And just for the record, I pretty muchdo all that already.
I guess my slowness comes from the fact I just suck.  :laugh:


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## phil brown

Another hindrance i find is when people land short of the green only a few yards then chip up and on but leave their bags at the front of the green when they can see that the next tee is through the green to the back. It is then a leisurely stroll whilst pointing all over the course counting their shots. I have done this and several other things that have been mentioned but, I am getting better now:laugh:

Although my scoring hardly changes, i have done a 2:15 round and an enforced 4:30 round, I am generally fuming at slow play but if i see that it is an elderly person i just take a breath and think "I hope i am still playing at their age". The only time i get annoyed is when it is a lifeless youth whose idea of a refreshment break is a can of beer half way around.


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