# Can I mess up a drop on purpose?



## Bob Sage (Oct 21, 2011)

Today I hit into very tangled rough on a steep downslope running away from the green. The ball was unplayable. So I dropped the ball within 2 club lengths and it just rolled further down the hill into unplayable lie again.

When I got home I looked up the rule on unplayable lie and it says that if you drop the ball twice from shoulder height and both times it lands closer to the hole than the original ball position, then you get to _place_ the ball on the ground (no drop) within 2 club lengths (and of course no closer to the hole).

So I thought, what I could have done today is stepped 2 club lengths _closer_ to the hole and dropped the ball. Even when it went down the slope it probably would still have stopped closer to the hole. So I'd have to drop again. If I did that twice and both times the ball was closer to the hole, I could then just place the ball somewhere in that rough that was playable.

So the question is, am I allowed to drop from 2 club lengths closer to the hole so I can force the ball to land closer to the hole?


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## 373 (Jun 9, 2006)

You are not allowed to do anything in a way that leaves your dropped ball closer to the hole. Repeated drops that wound up closer would mean you have to place the ball.

As for it being dropped and rolling into an unplayable lie, I don't think you can be forced to suffer penalty after penalty that way and you would place the ball in that circumstance again, but not closer to the hole.


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## Bob Sage (Oct 21, 2011)

*Thanks. I found this...*

Thanks for the "repeated drops" phrase. I used it to search for an answer. Here's what I found:

28/3 Ball Dropped Under Unplayable Ball Rule Comes to Rest in Original Position or Another Position at Which Ball Is 
Unplayable 
Q. A player deemed his ball unplayable and, under Rule 28c, dropped his ball within two club-lengths of the spot where it lay. The ball came to rest in the original position or another position at which the ball was unplayable. What is the ruling? 

A. The ball was in play when it was dropped — Rule 20-4. Thus, if the ball came to rest in the original position, the player must again invoke the unplayable ball Rule, incurring an additional penalty stroke, unless he decides to play the ball as it lies. The same applies if the ball came to rest in another position at which it was unplayable, assuming that the ball did not roll into a position covered by Rule 20-2c, in which case re-dropping without penalty would be required.

However, I still am wondering whether I can get out of this situation by dropping twice on purpose where the ball lands closer to the hole. Because if you do that, you get to place the ball on the ground as long as it's further from the hole than it started.

If you find yourself in this situation and you haven't hit a provisional and there are golfers waiting behind you, you could keep dropping back into unplayable lies until your score was 1000.

Here is the rule for redropping. Notice that after you redrop, if it again lands somewhere it shouldn't you get to place the ball on the ground instead of dropping it.

• c. When to Re-Drop
A dropped ball must be re-dropped without penalty if it:

(i) rolls into and comes to rest in a hazard;
(ii) rolls out of and comes to rest outside a hazard;
(iii) rolls onto and comes to rest on a putting green;
(iv) rolls and comes to rest out of bounds;
(v) rolls to and comes to rest in a position where there is interference by the condition from which relief was taken under Rule 24-2b (immovable obstruction), Rule 25-1 (abnormal ground conditions), Rule 25-3 (wrong putting green) or a Local Rule (Rule 33-8a), or rolls back into the pitch-mark from which it was lifted under Rule 25-2 (embedded ball),
(vi) rolls and comes to rest more than two club-lengths from where it first struck a part of the course; or
(vii) rolls and comes to rest nearer the hole than:
(a) its original position or estimated position (see Rule 20-2b) unless otherwise permitted by the Rules; or 
(b) the nearest point of relief or maximum available relief (Rule 24-2, 25-1 or 25-3), or 
(c) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or lateral water hazard (Rule 26-1).

If the ball when re-dropped rolls into any position listed above, it must be placed as near as possible to the spot where it first struck a part of the course when re-dropped.


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

Bob Sage said:


> Today I hit into very tangled rough on a steep downslope running away from the green. The ball was unplayable. So I dropped the ball within 2 club lengths and it just rolled further down the hill into unplayable lie again.
> 
> When I got home I looked up the rule on unplayable lie and it says that if you drop the ball twice from shoulder height and both times it lands closer to the hole than the original ball position, then you get to _place_ the ball on the ground (no drop) within 2 club lengths (and of course no closer to the hole).
> 
> ...


The ball, when dropped, must first touch a part of the course where the drop is allowed. That means that the ball cannot first touch a part of the course which is closer to the hole than where the ball was unplayable. If there is a legal point where the ball can be dropped where it will still roll or bounce into a position where redropping is required, then you are allowed to do so. You must first follow the procedure for locating the proper dropping zone, and then you must drop so that the ball first strikes the course within that zone.


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## 373 (Jun 9, 2006)

Fourputt said:


> TIf there is a legal point where the ball can be dropped where it will still roll or bounce into a position where redropping is required, then you are allowed to do so.


Hi Rick - Good to see your voice. Does this mean you can't suffer repeated penalties if your drop rolls into another unplayable lie? Presume the point at which the ball first hits to be a legal spot and presume the ball doesn't roll closer to the hole...

Thanks...


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## bredies (Feb 12, 2007)

The first thing to remember is you cannot drop the ball at a point nearer to the hole and it must be the nearest point of relief. Repeat the nearest point of relief not the best point of relief - a "mistake" a lot of players make. Choosing a spot that is better than the nearest point of relief.
Secondly there are other options besides the "2 club lengths" option.
IE go back as far as you want keeping the original position that the ball came to rest in between you and the hole. Go back to where you last played the ball taking a stroke (and obviously distance) may be another option. I am not sure.
On the 2 club lengths option the ball must land within the 2 club lengths but can then roll another 1 club length as long as it is no nearer the hole. If it comes to rest within those laws it is in play. If that "in play" is once again unplayable then tough luck the whole process is repeated with all the accruing penalties.
If however after two attempts at dropping it within 2 club lengths it rolls more than an additional 1 club length you can then place it on the spot that the ball landed on the second attempt before rolling too far. Provided always that this is not nearer the hole.
Who said the game was fair?


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

DennisM said:


> Hi Rick - Good to see your voice. Does this mean you can't suffer repeated penalties if your drop rolls into another unplayable lie? Presume the point at which the ball first hits to be a legal spot and presume the ball doesn't roll closer to the hole...
> 
> Thanks...


Dennis,

When taking relief from any unplayable lie you are not guaranteed relief from rolling back into the same condition. If the ball is again unplayable after the drop, then you must invoke Rule 28 again and take another penalty stroke and try a different procedure. This is why there are more options than there are for taking relief from an obstruction or abnormal ground. If the 2 clublength drop area is such that the ball is almost guaranteed to roll back into an unplayable lie, then you had better consider one of the other 2 options under Rule 28.


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## Bob Sage (Oct 21, 2011)

*Thanks for the right answer...*



Fourputt said:


> The ball, when dropped, must first touch a part of the course where the drop is allowed. That means that the ball cannot first touch a part of the course which is closer to the hole than where the ball was unplayable. If there is a legal point where the ball can be dropped where it will still roll or bounce into a position where redropping is required, then you are allowed to do so. You must first follow the procedure for locating the proper dropping zone, and then you must drop so that the ball first strikes the course within that zone.


Thanks. You have answered my question. The only other option that worked given the terrain was to go back to where I hit from and hit the ball again. That's what I should have done. It was a trek and I thought I could save time.


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## Accufitgolf (Nov 4, 2011)

*it must be the nearest point of relief. Repeat the nearest point of relief not the best point of relief - a "mistake" a lot of players make. Choosing a spot that is better than the nearest point of relief.*

A mistake I see all the time. The *nearest point of relief* is quite often not the *nicest point of relief*.


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

Accufitgolf said:


> *it must be the nearest point of relief. Repeat the nearest point of relief not the best point of relief - a "mistake" a lot of players make. Choosing a spot that is better than the nearest point of relief.*
> 
> A mistake I see all the time. The *nearest point of relief* is quite often not the *nicest point of relief*.


Although for the original question, it is *not* the nearest point of relief, but one of the three options described in Rule 28.

I do agree with your statement though. When determining the nearest point of relief for dropping without penalty, there is only one point on the golf course which fits the definition, and that is not always a good thing. It can just as easily be in the middle of a bush, in unplayable rough, or other such sticky situations. You don't get additional free relief just because your required dropping area is unfavorable.


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## Accufitgolf (Nov 4, 2011)

Fourputt said:


> Although for the original question, it is *not* the nearest point of relief, but one of the three options described in Rule 28.
> 
> I do agree with your statement though. When determining the nearest point of relief for dropping without penalty, there is only one point on the golf course which fits the definition, and that is not always a good thing. It can just as easily be in the middle of a bush, in unplayable rough, or other such sticky situations. You don't get additional free relief just because your required dropping area is unfavorable.



Used to have a situation at a club I belonged to. Dogleg right, cart path along the right side of fairway. Trees and bushes to the right of the path at the dogleg where many tee shots fell.

Issue was when a ball was on the path (and or the path interfered with a swing) many times the "relief" was to the right of the path in the trees/bushs which was the nearest point of relief but far from the nicest point of relief. 

Nearest, not the nicest became a "slang" expression among the members especially when it came to other things like fat/ugly women.......LOL


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

Accufitgolf said:


> Used to have a situation at a club I belonged to. Dogleg right, cart path along the right side of fairway. Trees and bushes to the right of the path at the dogleg where many tee shots fell.
> 
> Issue was when a ball was on the path (and or the path interfered with a swing) many times the "relief" was to the right of the path in the trees/bushs which was the nearest point of relief but far from the nicest point of relief.


I've hit a lot of shots from cart paths for this very reason. With care, you don't have to damage a club to do it. You may not hit your best shot of the day, but it's usually better than what you would do if trying to play from a terrible lie in the dropping area, or in declaring the ball unplayable and taking the penalty stroke.


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## 373 (Jun 9, 2006)

Accufitgolf said:


> Issue was when a ball was on the path (and or the path interfered with a swing) many times the "relief" was to the right of the path in the trees/bushs which was the nearest point of relief but far from the nicest point of relief.


I had a similar situation a few months ago playing golf at Crooked Creed in Durham, NC. I hit a drive to the right forest and it stayed on the cart path. The OB stakes were within a couple feet to the right of the cart path, the side on which "nearest relief" could have been taken, but there was no circumstance under which I could have had complete relief from the cart path. Unless I played my ball from far enough away that it would have been OB, I would have to stand on the cart path.

We weren't sure what to do and it seemed the only fair relief was to the opposite side of the cart path. It was no bargain either, deeper grass instead of a sparse forest, but there was a slightly improved angle to the green, which wasn't far away. It allowed me to hit a normal shot instead of having to his something worthy of Seve from the forest, standing on the concrete, slicing the ball around trees, somehow stopping it on a green that was like a plateau on top of a mound.


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