# Rule of the week



## Surtees

Hi all I just thought I'd start a new topic of rule of the week I will try to make sure I put a new one up every week. Enjoy

Question: "Do I need to mark the original position of my ball before taking relief from a situation under the Rules?"

Answer: "No. It is always advisable to mark the original position of the ball when taking relief, but there is no obligation on the player to do so."


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## King Woods

Great idea! Rules are always useful. Rules keep you from being penalized for ignorance and help you maintain full awareness of the legality of your competitor's actions.


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## Surtees

thanks for that I'll keep them coming


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## NikosCC

Yea good job keep them coming.


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## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> Hi all I just thought I'd start a new topic of rule of the week I will try to make sure I put a new one up every week. Enjoy
> 
> Question: "Do I need to mark the original position of my ball before taking relief from a situation under the Rules?"
> 
> Answer: "No. It is always advisable to mark the original position of the ball when taking relief, but there is no obligation on the player to do so."


Just to add a bit of discussion to this... 

1. Can anyone state why it might be advisable to mark before lifting the ball from it's original lie? 

2. Are there any other possibilities that you should take into consideration before lifting the ball?


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> Just to add a bit of discussion to this...
> 
> 1. Can anyone state why it might be advisable to mark before lifting the ball from it's original lie?
> 
> 2. Are there any other possibilities that you should take into consideration before lifting the ball?


1.In another players lie

2. ground under repair 

My best guesses

good guestions


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> Just to add a bit of discussion to this...
> 
> 1. Can anyone state why it might be advisable to mark before lifting the ball from it's original lie?
> 
> 2. Are there any other possibilities that you should take into consideration before lifting the ball?


1.In another players lie

2. ground under repair 

My best guesses

good guestions


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> 1.In another players lie
> 
> 2. ground under repair
> 
> My best guesses
> 
> good guestions


1. If your ball interferes with another player's ball you wouldn't be taking relief, you be marking and lifting to give him relief, and then in that case you would have to mark so that you could replace your ball. But there is one really good reason for marking your ball before you lift it when you are taking relief, and it can be necessary whether you are getting free relief or taking a penalty drop. Still looking for that one.

2. I was looking for some possible consequences of lifting your ball prematurely when taking free relief, not just the situation.


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> 1. If your ball interferes with another player's ball you wouldn't be taking relief, you be marking and lifting to give him relief, and then in that case you would have to mark so that you could replace your ball. But there is one really good reason for marking your ball before you lift it when you are taking relief, and it can be necessary whether you are getting free relief or taking a penalty drop. Still looking for that one.
> 
> 2. I was looking for some possible consequences of lifting your ball prematurely when taking free relief, not just the situation.


Beats the PUTTs out of me then.


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## Surtees

Fourputt said:


> Just to add a bit of discussion to this...
> 
> 1. Can anyone state why it might be advisable to mark before lifting the ball from it's original lie?
> 
> 2. Are there any other possibilities that you should take into consideration before lifting the ball?


It might be adviseable to mark your ball before lifting it just in case you have mistaking thought that you are in a relief zone when you may not be. This is just a thought I am not sure about it though


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## stevel1017

You should mark the original position of the ball to insure you replace it *Exactly* where you lifted it from
You should also take into consideration how far down in the rough it is, and any other features of the lie, not just the position. as in lifting to identify the ball, it must be replaced exactly in the way it was


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## broken tee

Stevel: Rule 20 gives me the impression you can mark the ball any time or if a ball interfers in a stance or swing. what do you think?


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## stevel1017

Yes, but you must replace it exactly as it was (play with some guys, and magically the ball is now sitting up lol)


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## Surtees

stevel1017 said:


> Yes, but you must replace it exactly as it was (play with some guys, and magically the ball is now sitting up lol)



How did you figuare out my magic trick?


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## broken tee

Surtees said:


> How did you figuare out my magic trick?


Never Fear the Down Under is Here


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## broken tee

stevel1017 said:


> Yes, but you must replace it exactly as it was (play with some guys, and magically the ball is now sitting up lol)


LOL that only applies for winter rules...doesn't it?


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Stevel: Rule 20 gives me the impression you can mark the ball any time or if a ball interfers in a stance or swing. what do you think?


The answer to this is no. _Through the green_ you can mark and lift *only if requested to by your opponent or fellow competitor* if he feels that your ball will interfere with his swing, but it must be his choice, not yours. If you do so you are not allowed to clean your ball. 

On the putting green it is your right to mark and lift your ball, and it has become almost automatic for most players to do so. In this case you *can* clean it.

For the other questions I posed:

1. When taking relief it is advisable to mark when there might be some doubt as to where the nearest point of relief is located, thus requiring measurement to correctly determine it. You can't measure if you don't know exactly where the ball was. This is also one good reason for my 2nd question.

2. You never want to lift your ball in a relief situation until you are certain that you will be taking relief. If you lift your ball, then realize that your drop point would be in a bush or nearly unplayable rough, you will incur a penalty stroke if you decide to replace it and play from where it originally lay. Once you lift your ball to take relief, you are obligated to follow through or take the penalty under Rule 18 for moving your ball in a manner not allowed under the rules. Even if you mark the location, you still incur the penalty. For this reason, I never touch my ball until I've examined all the options and made certain that I will take relief. I usually mark the NPR, measure my clublength, then I when I know exactly where I'll be dropping I retrieve my ball. I've played many times from such a situation (from a cart path or GUR) because the relief point was much worse than the original lie. Keep in mind that you *must not* substitute another ball when following this procedure unless the original ball is not recoverable. Doing so will incur a 2 stroke penalty.

It pays to have a good understanding of relief procedures... taking "free" relief can be costly if done incorrectly.


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> The answer to this is no. _Through the green_ you can mark and lift *only if requested to by your opponent or fellow competitor* if he feels that your ball will interfere with his swing, but it must be his choice, not yours. If you do so you are not allowed to clean your ball.
> 
> On the putting green it is your right to mark and lift your ball, and it has become almost automatic for most players to do so. In this case you *can* clean it.
> 
> For the other questions I posed:
> 
> 1. When taking relief it is advisable to mark when there might be some doubt as to where the nearest point of relief is located, thus requiring measurement to correctly determine it. You can't measure if you don't know exactly where the ball was. This is also one good reason for my 2nd question.
> 
> 2. You never want to lift your ball in a relief situation until you are certain that you will be taking relief. If you lift your ball, then realize that your drop point would be in a bush or nearly unplayable rough, you will incur a penalty stroke if you decide to replace it and play from where it originally lay. Once you lift your ball to take relief, you are obligated to follow through or take the penalty under Rule 18 for moving your ball in a manner not allowed under the rules. Even if you mark the location, you still incur the penalty. For this reason, I never touch my ball until I've examined all the options and made certain that I will take relief. I usually mark the NPR, measure my clublength, then I when I know exactly where I'll be dropping I retrieve my ball. I've played many times from such a situation (from a cart path or GUR) because the relief point was much worse than the original lie. Keep in mind that you *must not* substitute another ball when following this procedure unless the original ball is not recoverable. Doing so will incur a 2 stroke penalty.
> 
> It pays to have a good understanding of relief procedures... taking "free" relief can be costly if done incorrectly.


Rick I surrender :laugh:


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## Surtees

Here is the rule fo this week.

Question: "My ball lies just off the putting green. Can I repair a ball mark which is on the putting green?"

Answer: "Yes."


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## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> Here is the rule fo this week.
> 
> Question: "My ball lies just off the putting green. Can I repair a ball mark which is on the putting green?"
> 
> Answer: "Yes."


Can you repair one that is on the fringe between your ball and the hole? 


Careful... there is a trick to this one.


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## Surtees

I'm not sure about one on the fringe I'd guess that you would just have to play with the line you have but as you said theres a trick to this one I'm guessing theres a loop hole there somewhere.

Luke


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## Fourputt

I'll wait a bit to see if anyone else responds before I spoil the fun and give the answer.


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> I'll wait a bit to see if anyone else responds before I spoil the fun and give the answer.


I'll bite: the only thing I can find that is close to this is if a divot interferes with the swing other wise rule 16 applies strictly with the green...I'm I close:dunno:

Bob


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## Fourputt

Since nobody seems much interested, Here's my take on it. If your ball is not on the putting green, you cannot repair a pitch mark which is also off the green before you make your stroke, with one exception. If you play your approach shot and your ball is at rest, then another players hits a shot that creates a pitch mark on your line, you ARE allowed to repair it. You are entitled to the lie and condition which YOUR stroke gave you, and if the damage was created after your ball was at rest, you can repair it.


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> Since nobody seems much interested, Here's my take on it. If your ball is not on the putting green, you cannot repair a pitch mark which is also off the green before you make your stroke, with one exception. If you play your approach shot and your ball is at rest, then another players hits a shot that creates a pitch mark on your line, you ARE allowed to repair it. You are entitled to the lie and condition which YOUR stroke gave you, and if the damage was created after your ball was at rest, you can repair it.


Rick: First of all I'm somebody Now I can't give you a good argument on rules, but I've seen in tournaments when a ball comes to rest in a divot the players were allowed a lateral move. Could the be local rules or is this USGA rules or even a violation, as I posted before all I could find was rule 16 that delt with the green. I like this, good question:thumbsup:


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Rick: First of all I'm somebody Now I can't give you a good argument on rules, but I've seen in tournaments when a ball comes to rest in a divot the players were allowed a lateral move. Could the be local rules or is this USGA rules or even a violation, as I posted before all I could find was rule 16 that delt with the green. I like this, good question:thumbsup:


There is no local rule that allows a player to improve his lie or line of play from just any divot or pitch mark. The only exception is if the ball lies in its own pitch mark in a closely mowed area _through the green_, or the case I posted above. (There IS a local rule allowing relief for a ball embedded in its own pitch mark in the rough, but it is primarily used by the PGA Tour so those so-called "best golfers in the world" never have to deal with any adversity. The LR is rarely invoked anywhere else because if a course is in such a condition to justify this local rule, it is usually unplayable anyway.) 

Rule 13 - Ball Played as it Lies covers most of this question. Read that rule and the decisions associated with it to see what I'm referring to. 

I didn't mean to imply that you are nobody... I thoroughly enjoy discussions about the rules (what a surprise ). It keeps them fresh in my mind, and the more time I spend in the rule book and the decisions book the better I am at finding what I need when I need it. Most basic questions I don't need the book for (unless I'm quoting it directly for support), but someone always manages to find an obscure question in these discussions, and those are the ones which are really fun.


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## broken tee

Rick: Give us another mind bending situation. Reading some of those is like reading government regulations you need another rule to explain the first rule Never take offense to me.I can come across as a horse's butt. this is golf with words and I have fun relieving my stress here and on the course. Just watch when my young friend from down under reads this. I've given him at least a four shot lead on insults and kangaroo ass remarks


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## broken tee

broken tee said:


> Rick: Give us another mind bending situation. Reading some of those is like reading government regulations you need another rule to explain the first rule Never take offense to me.I can come across as a horse's butt. this is golf with words and I have fun relieving my stress here and on the course. Just watch when my young friend from down under reads this. I've given him at least a four shot lead on insults and kangaroo ass remarks


:headbang:


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Rick: Give us another mind bending situation. Reading some of those is like reading government regulations you need another rule to explain the first rule Never take offense to me.I can come across as a horse's butt. this is golf with words and I have fun relieving my stress here and on the course. Just watch when my young friend from down under reads this. I've given him at least a four shot lead on insults and kangaroo ass remarks


I'll think about it and come up with a question tomorrow for the next weekly rule debate.


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## broken tee

*Rule of the week- lets put it together*



Fourputt said:


> I'll think about it and come up with a question tomorrow for the next weekly rule debate.


We've covered immovable obsticles, so how do the officials handle rule 13 when Tiger or anyone else put one in the stands behind the green... is there a drop area?


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> We've covered immovable obsticles, so how do the officials handle rule 13 when Tiger or anyone else put one in the stands behind the green... is there a drop area?


Well, a bit late on this, but here's the answer. Such objects are treated in the rules as _temporary immovable obstructions_ (TIO) under a Local Rule. See Appendix IB - Item 7a for the specimen local rule covering TIO. Basically, they first attempt to provide relief under Rule 24 with added allowance for line of play (see the above mentioned LR). If it isn't possible to provide relief then a drop zone is used that provides relief. That drop zone may be on the opposite side from what would otherwise be the nearest point of relief, but otherwise meets the requirement of not being closer to the hole. 

Note that line of play relief is ONLY available in the case of TIO, not for obstructions which are a permanent part of the course. For normal obstructions relief is only for lie, stance, and area of intended swing.


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## Fourputt

duplicate post


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## broken tee

Thanks Rick


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## Surtees

broken tee said:


> Rick: Give us another mind bending situation. Reading some of those is like reading government regulations you need another rule to explain the first rule Never take offense to me.I can come across as a horse's butt. this is golf with words and I have fun relieving my stress here and on the course. Just watch when my young friend from down under reads this. I've given him at least a four shot lead on insults and kangaroo ass remarks


Kangaroo ass remarks hey?? thats I new one I would of just gone with smart ass but then as you said you are a horse's butt so your doing pretty well just to type in that case.:headbang:

P.S Bob I'm back


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## broken tee

Rick: You told the story of a friend that drove a ball into a tree waited a few sec and a ball fell out just to be the wrong ball. Lets change this to finding the ball in the tree and you knock it out with a ball retriever is this a two stroke penalty for disturbing the ball or shaking the tree vrs hitting the ball with a club. I think I'd like to throw in "striking the ball" with what; to get the ball out of the tree. I hope this is clear.


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Rick: You told the story of a friend that drove a ball into a tree waited a few sec and a ball fell out just to be the wrong ball. Lets change this to finding the ball in the tree and you knock it out with a ball retriever is this a two stroke penalty for disturbing the ball or shaking the tree vrs hitting the ball with a club. I think I'd like to throw in "striking the ball" with what; to get the ball out of the tree. I hope this is clear.


There are some conditions that must be met, or at least considered, before you try to get the ball out. First you should try to identify it. If it can be identified as your ball, then you can either play it from the tree or declare it unplayable. If you don't declare it unplayable before you dislodge it, you incur a one stroke penalty for breach of Rule 18-2, and the ball must be replaced. If you declare it unplayable after you have dislodged it, you still incur the penalty, but you don't have to replace it. You will still be assessed the additional one stroke penalty for proceeding under Rule 28 (Ball Unplayable) - 2 penalty strokes total. 

You may use anything you like to dislodge the ball once you declare it unplayable.

Now the next possibility. If you can't identify the ball, you should still declare the ball unplayable before you dislodge it to save yourself the added penalty. If that turns out not to be your ball, then your ball is still missing, and the search continues. If the ball is found and playable, then you can disregard the declaration of unplayability. 

You can still declare it as unplayable if not found, but your only option is to proceed under penalty of stroke and distance, because you don't know where the ball lies. It is still effectively lost so returning to the previous spot is the only option. 

And that leads to today's Rule of the Week (see next post):rofl:


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## Fourputt

Try this on for size...

A player hit his tee shot deep into the woods on the right. The player then hit a provisional ball into the same woods. The player did not search for either ball.

The player deemed his first ball unplayable, said he was abandoning his provisional ball (allowed under Rule 28) and hit a third ball from the tee. The player maintained that his third ball was in play and that he was lying 3. He based his argument on Rule 28, which states that the player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable, and on Decision 28/1, which says in effect that a player may proceed under the stroke-and-distance option of the unplayable ball Rule without finding his ball. 

His fellow competitor argued that he was lying 5 because under Rule 27 the provisional ball could not be abandoned unless the original ball was found.

Who was correct?


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## stevel1017

good question, look forward to the answer, but i am going to say the fellow competetor, he lies 5


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> Try this on for size...
> 
> A player hit his tee shot deep into the woods on the right. The player then hit a provisional ball into the same woods. The player did not search for either ball.
> 
> The player deemed his first ball unplayable, said he was abandoning his provisional ball (allowed under Rule 28) and hit a third ball from the tee. The player maintained that his third ball was in play and that he was lying 3. He based his argument on Rule 28, which states that the player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable, and on Decision 28/1, which says in effect that a player may proceed under the stroke-and-distance option of the unplayable ball Rule without finding his ball.
> 
> His fellow competitor argued that he was lying 5 because under Rule 27 the provisional ball could not be abandoned unless the original ball was found.
> 
> Who was correct?


Rick: You dirty guy... I say the player is correct under 28/2 a,c forcing me to inturpt the rules that had to be written by a gvt employee that never played the game


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## Surtees

I think I need to look at the rule book again before giving my opinion here


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## broken tee

Surtees said:


> I think I need to look at the rule book again before giving my opinion here


Never read with a beer in hand you might spill the beer! before swinging the club put the rule book down first, have a drink hit the ball have another drink and glare at the ball you missed:cheeky4:


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## Surtees

Question: "In a Stableford competition, Luke has 5 strokes for 3 points and Sam has 4 for 2. Who has the honour at the next hole?"

Answer: "Luke does – he had 3 points whereas Sam only had 2 points. In a Stableford competition, the number of gross strokes is irrelevant in determining the honour."



broken tee said:


> Never read with a beer in hand you might spill the beer! before swinging the club put the rule book down first, have a drink hit the ball have another drink and glare at the ball you missed:cheeky4:


To Fix the problem of missing the ball I shall have another drink and then all will be good in the world again


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## Fourputt

Fourputt said:


> Try this on for size...
> 
> A player hit his tee shot deep into the woods on the right. The player then hit a provisional ball into the same woods. The player did not search for either ball.
> 
> The player deemed his first ball unplayable, said he was abandoning his provisional ball (allowed under Rule 28) and hit a third ball from the tee. The player maintained that his third ball was in play and that he was lying 3. He based his argument on Rule 28, which states that the player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable, and on Decision 28/1, which says in effect that a player may proceed under the stroke-and-distance option of the unplayable ball Rule without finding his ball.
> 
> His fellow competitor argued that he was lying 5 because under Rule 27 the provisional ball could not be abandoned unless the original ball was found.
> 
> Who was correct?


The answer is that the player was lying 5, hitting 6 with the 3rd ball. In this case Rule 27 supersedes Rule 28 because the _provisional ball_ can only be played under Rule 27. That states when you find the original ball, the _provisional ball_ must be abandoned. If you don't find the original ball then the _provisional ball_ is the ball in play, and that would make that ball lying 3. 

The _provisional ball_ CAN be declared unplayable because it is now the ball in play, and with no additional _provisional ball_ played, Rule 27 is not in effect. 

*Once the player plays a ball that has been designated as a provisional ball, he has proceeded under Rule 27, and he can't change the status of the provisional ball by deciding to use a different rule.*



Surtees said:


> Question: "In a Stableford competition, Luke has 5 strokes for 3 points and Sam has 4 for 2. Who has the honour at the next hole?"
> 
> Answer: "Luke does – he had 3 points whereas Sam only had 2 points. In a Stableford competition, the number of gross strokes is irrelevant in determining the honour."


But in my club, we play ready golf, so honor is simply a courtesy, not a necessity, unless we are playing a match. And Stableford is so rare in the US that I'd bet that more than half of the players you ask would have no idea that you are even talking about golf. :dunno:


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## broken tee

Can I take a mulligan on this one?



Fourputt said:


> The answer is that the player was lying 5, hitting 6 with the 3rd ball. In this case Rule 27 supersedes Rule 28 because the _provisional ball_ can only be played under Rule 27. That states when you find the original ball, the _provisional ball_ must be abandoned. If you don't find the original ball then the _provisional ball_ is the ball in play, and that would make that ball lying 3.
> 
> The _provisional ball_ CAN be declared unplayable because it is now the ball in play, and with no additional _provisional ball_ played, Rule 27 is not in effect.
> 
> *Once the player plays a ball that has been designated as a provisional ball, he has proceeded under Rule 27, and he can't change the status of the provisional ball by deciding to use a different rule.*


Please read 28/2 and explain the difference to me


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Please read 28/2 and explain the difference to me


There is no difference. That is where I got the question which I posed.  It says the same thing because I just paraphrased the question and left out the answer.


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## Surtees

Fourputt said:


> But in my club, we play ready golf, so honor is simply a courtesy, not a necessity, unless we are playing a match. And Stableford is so rare in the US that I'd bet that more than half of the players you ask would have no idea that you are even talking about golf. :dunno:


Sorry I didn't know what the main style that you play over there are I get my stuff from an Aussie web site so hence the stableford one. When I normally play we don't really worry about honors either we just take turns most of the time.


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> There is no difference. That is where I got the question which I posed.  It says the same thing because I just paraphrased the question and left out the answer.


You really know how to irritate my insanity don't you?


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> You really know how to irritate my insanity don't you?


The decisions book is a great place to find good rules questions. Many of them I can relate to directly because the same situations have occurred to me or to a member of my group. For a lot of the questions that I answer on the forum I have direct personal experience to rely on. Much of my interest in the rules comes from being involved in such situations on the course during tournaments and wanting to never put myself in a position where my lack of knowledge would get me in trouble.


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> The decisions book is a great place to find good rules questions. Many of them I can relate to directly because the same situations have occurred to me or to a member of my group. For a lot of the questions that I answer on the forum I have direct personal experience to rely on. Much of my interest in the rules comes from being involved in such situations on the course during tournaments and wanting to never put myself in a position where my lack of knowledge would get me in trouble.


Can't find fault with that logic Rick


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## Fourputt

In a local club tournament, Bob hits his tee shot on the par 4 fifth hole. Unfortunately neither Bob nor any of his felllow competitors see where the ball went. He thinks that he hit it a bit higher than usual, but has no idea of direction. So he says, " I'll hit another one." This one he pops up just 100 yards off the tee and in some shaggy rough to the right of the fairway. He heads over, immediately finds a ball of the same brand as he uses and hits it, assuming that it is the second ball hit from the tee. Then walking back to his cart, he finds another ball, checks and identifies that one as the second ball he hit from the tee. Now he is in a quandary... what did he just hit? He leaves that ball there thinking that he may have hit a wrong ball, so he goes forward and see what he did hit. He finds that the ball he hit was his original ball, found entirely by accident. Praising the golf gods and his good fortune, he then goes back and picks up the second ball, and finishes the hole with the original ball, chipping up and 2 putting, marking a 5 on his card.

The question.... Was he correct? Did he score a 5? If not, what did he actually score?


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## broken tee

I'm going to hate myself for this...he made bogie, he identified his original ball after hitting a provisional.


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## Fourputt

I'll give a hint... check out rules 15-3b and 27-2 and throw in a little 18-2.... mix well and let simmer overnight.


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## broken tee

broken tee said:


> I'm going to hate myself for this...he made bogie, he identified his original ball after hitting a provisional.


LOL... I'm starting not to like you Rick...After looking at these rules I 'm as clear on the rules as the bottom of the WC. So, since this was a tourney play he declared a provisional. He goes to play the provisional, plays what he thought was the prov. the ball its now in play, but he played the original which was the wrong ball so he lost the hole


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> LOL... I'm starting not to like you Rick...After looking at these rules I 'm as clear on the rules as the bottom of the WC. So, since this was a tourney play he declared a provisional. He goes to play the provisional, plays what he thought was the prov. the ball its now in play, but he played the original which was the wrong ball so he lost the hole


You're close.... headed the right direction anyway. Maybe another hint ( a little touch of the Socratic method): At what point did his 2nd tee shot become a provisional ball?


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> You're close.... headed the right direction anyway. Maybe another hint ( a little touch of the Socratic method): At what point did his 2nd tee shot become a provisional ball?


Okay, Are you implying that the player must say; "I'm hitting a provisional." where;"I'm hitting another." isn't the same thing?


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Okay, Are you implying that the player must say; "I'm hitting a provisional." where;"I'm hitting another." isn't the same thing?


Precisely! :thumbsup: 

He must in some way indicate that the ball he is hitting is a provisional ball and not just a ball played under penalty of stroke and distance. By far the best way is to simply say "I am hitting a provisional ball." If a player says "I'm going to hit another one just in case.", that could be deemed to be sufficient, but why not use the correct word and remove any doubt? IN this case the player said no such thing, thus he never played a provisional ball except in his own mind.


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> Precisely! :thumbsup:
> 
> He must in some way indicate that the ball he is hitting is a provisional ball and not just a ball played under penalty of stroke and distance. By far the best way is to simply say "I am hitting a provisional ball." If a player says "I'm going to hit another one just in case.", that could be deemed to be sufficient, but why not use the correct word and remove any doubt? IN this case the player said no such thing, thus he never played a provisional ball except in his own mind.


That was fun:thumbsup:


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> That was fun:thumbsup:


Here are the possible endings, depending on whether or not he committed certain errors.

1. Assume that he DID declare a provisional ball. In that case, the fact that he hit the original ball by mistake, thinking that it was the provisional makes no difference. The fact that he played the original ball means that by rule the provisional ball was abandoned (Rule 27-2c).



> If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball.


Thus with this assumption he scored a 5. In this case he's a happy camper. Unfortunately this one is pure fantasy as the case actually played out. 

2. Now we take the original scenario as written. Bob did not play a provisional ball as Rule 27-2a requires, thus the original ball is deemed lost the moment he puts another ball in play. Now when he hits the original ball, it is a wrong ball, and under Rule 15-3b he incurs a penalty of 2 strokes for that mistake, AND he must correct the mistake by finishing the hole with the second ball. Only the penalty counts, any strokes taken with the wrong ball are not counted. He *should* be lying 5 and finishing the hole with the second ball, because *that* is actually the ball in play. BUT.... he picked up the second ball and finished the hole with the wrong ball, then teed off on the next hole. In doing so he is disqualified, and has no score for that hole. His tournament is over at that point. He also turned in a scorecard that had an incorrect hole score, so he is doubly disqualified.

3. Let's take the 2nd scenario and assume that he did realize his mistake before he played from the next tee. So he goes back and holes out with the 2nd ball properly. Unfortunately, he also incurred an additional penalty for picking up the ball in play (Rule 18-2). So we add up the score... 1 (1st tee ball), 2 & 3 (2nd tee ball with penalty), 5 (2 strokes for playing the wrong ball), 6 (1 stroke for moving his ball in play), 7 (plays short of the green), 8 (chips on), 9 & 10 (2 putts to hole out). 

So if he followed all of the correct avenues to fix his many mistakes, he ends up with a 10 for the hole.


----------



## Surtees

Now that was interesting. Rick I think you like playing mind games with us.


----------



## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> Now that was interesting. Rick I think you like playing mind games with us.


I guess I do enjoy trying to help any golfer to better understand the Rules of Golf. This was more of an example of how fast it can go wrong when you *don't* know the correct procedures than it was a real attempt to teach the rules. There are too many rules in this scenario that are interconnected for the average golfer to really have much chance of tracking them all down. It was more intended to demonstrate that by the simple omission of neglecting to declare his second ball as a provisional ball, Bob caused himself all sorts of trouble. 

For most golfers, if you want to avoid running into such webs as Bob got tangled in, it really pays to learn the *procedures* spelled out in the rules. Don't worry about the penalties for not following those procedures.... instead learn how to do them correctly and you will never have to worry about those penalties. This is what I strive to do when playing in tournaments. When I see a fellow competitor about to make a mistake, I try to stop him and help him get it right. I don't just stand there an let him do it wrong, then tell him that he just incurred 2 or more penalty strokes. IMO, doing it like that is contrary to the spirit of the game, and certainly contrary to the on course image that I like to project.

I think I'm going to focus now more on that aspect of the game in this thread for a while and not as much on the complex scenarios. I think you will find that to be more helpful, and it shouldn't be nearly as confusing.


----------



## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> I guess I do enjoy trying to help any golfer to better understand the Rules of Golf. This was more of an example of how fast it can go wrong when you *don't* know the correct procedures than it was a real attempt to teach the rules. There are too many rules in this scenario that are interconnected for the average golfer to really have much chance of tracking them all down. It was more intended to demonstrate that by the simple omission of neglecting to declare his second ball as a provisional ball, Bob caused himself all sorts of trouble.
> 
> For most golfers, if you want to avoid running into such webs as Bob got tangled in, it really pays to learn the *procedures* spelled out in the rules. Don't worry about the penalties for not following those procedures.... instead learn how to do them correctly and you will never have to worry about those penalties. This is what I strive to do when playing in tournaments. When I see a fellow competitor about to make a mistake, I try to stop him and help him get it right. I don't just stand there an let him do it wrong, then tell him that he just incurred 2 or more penalty strokes. IMO, doing it like that is contrary to the spirit of the game, and certainly contrary to the on course image that I like to project.
> 
> I think I'm going to focus now more on that aspect of the game in this thread for a while and not as much on the complex scenarios. I think you will find that to be more helpful, and it shouldn't be nearly as confusing.


Good... after dealing with gangbangers and out of control teens I need a stress reliever:headbang:


----------



## Fourputt

As a preamble to my next question of the week/day/

Any time that a player is involved in a Rules quandary, there are two basic principles of the game which he should consider before taking any action. They were written down by Richard Tufts in his book "The Principles Behind The Rules of Golf". Those tenets are:

1. "If there is one principle more basic than any of the rest, it must be that you play the course as you find it."

2. "The second great principle of golf is that you put your own ball in play at the start of the hole and play only your own ball and do not touch it before you lift it from the hole."

Any time you are unsure of how to proceed, consider these principles, and try to choose the procedure which most closely follows their lead. You will find that the Rules of Golf attempt as closely as possible to abide by these principles, and when you do have to touch your ball, that is when you get into those procedures which I feel are the ones that any golfer should try to learn before he does anything else. The procedures I'm referring to are:

1. What to do if your ball moves. (Rule 18)
2. How to lift and drop or place your ball. (Rule 20)
3. How to deal with loose impediments. (Rule 23)
4. What to do when an obstruction interferes. (Rule 24)
5. How to handle abnormal ground conditions. (Rule 25)
6. Water hazards. (Rule 26)
7. How to handle lost balls, out of bounds, including Provisional ball procedure. (Rule 27)
8. What to do when your ball is unplayable through the green. (Rule 28)

It sounds complicated but there are many areas where one rule is applied to several different procedures. The lifting and dropping rule is used for all situations where the ball is being dropped in a different place from where it came to rest. The only way that the different procedures change is in where the drop area might be, and whether or not a penalty is applied. Once the drop zone is established, the drop itself is essentially the same, with a slight modification that applies only to Rule 28. 

Another section of the rule book that can save you many headaches is the Definitions. In the examination given at the end of the 4 day USGA Rules Workshop, about 25% of the 100 questions can be answered simply by knowing the definitions. Understanding the terminology will go a long way in helping to understand the rules themselves.


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## broken tee

I try to stop him and help him get it right. I don't just stand there an let him do it wrong, then tell him that he just incurred 2 or more penalty strokes. IMO, doing it like that is contrary to the spirit of the game, and certainly contrary to the on course image that I like to project.

Rick: I cut off part of your quote: but in tournament play providing help or assistance can incur a penalty as I remember. In reality though I think your approach is honorable as a golfer.:thumbsup:


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> I try to stop him and help him get it right. I don't just stand there an let him do it wrong, then tell him that he just incurred 2 or more penalty strokes. IMO, doing it like that is contrary to the spirit of the game, and certainly contrary to the on course image that I like to project.
> 
> Rick: I cut off part of your quote: but in tournament play providing help or assistance can incur a penalty as I remember. In reality though I think your approach is honorable as a golfer.:thumbsup:


It isn't "assistance" that is forbidden, it's advice. Advice is one of those important definitions that I referred to in the above post. 

Information on the Rules is not advice. Advice is defined as anything that would assist a player in his play or in making a stroke. The Rules of Golf are considered information, as are distances from one point to another on the course. See the definition and read Rule 8 and you will be clearer on the issue. Advice is more about personal opinion, coaching or counsel, while items of general knowledge which are available to anyone are considered information.


----------



## 373

If I smack my math challenged, mulligan on every hole partner with a 3 iron, is that advice or assistance?  Would I do better hitting him with a hybrid?

Some of the rules that are not too well published are those that apply to the PGA Tour, presumably also to the LPGA. I don't know many, but every once in a while you hear about someone being disqualified for playing a different ball or a ball with a different number than they started the round with. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't a bit silly.


----------



## broken tee

DennisM said:


> If I smack my math challenged, mulligan on every hole partner with a 3 iron, is that advice or assistance?  Would I do better hitting him with a hybrid?
> 
> Some of the rules that are not too well published are those that apply to the PGA Tour, presumably also to the LPGA. I don't know many, but every once in a while you hear about someone being disqualified for playing a different ball or a ball with a different number than they started the round with. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't a bit silly.


That's assistance Dennis advise would be telling him to wear sandles without socks to count strokes


----------



## Fourputt

DennisM said:


> If I smack my math challenged, mulligan on every hole partner with a 3 iron, is that advice or assistance?  Would I do better hitting him with a hybrid?
> 
> Some of the rules that are not too well published are those that apply to the PGA Tour, presumably also to the LPGA. I don't know many, but every once in a while you hear about someone being disqualified for playing a different ball or a ball with a different number than they started the round with. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't a bit silly.


++

Yeah.. the PGA Tour in particular institutes some local rules rather more generously than the USGA recommends. And they do use the one ball condition of the competition for all Tour events. That doesn't require a ball of the same number, just that the same brand and model be used for the entire round. Some of the high level USGA tournaments (like the US Open) also invoke that condition.

One local rule that is always in force at PGA stops is the extension of the embedded ball rule to apply everywhere through the green, not just in the closely mowed areas as the regular rule calls for. They also apply the preferred lies local rule a bit more often than conditions should really warrant. After all, there isn't any reason why the best players in the world should have to face a bad break..... that's just reserved for the rest of us schmucks.  They also get relief from temporary immovable obstructions like grandstands and TV towers, which we don't have to deal with.

But otherwise the same rules apply to them and to us equally. The main difference is that we don't have Big Brother watching our every move to catch us out when we miss a drop by 6 inches.


----------



## broken tee

Rick: Rule 27... the ball is out of bounds you find it bring it back into play and drop how



Surtees said:


> Hi all I just thought I'd start a new topic of rule of the week I will try to make sure I put a new one up every week. Enjoy
> 
> Question: "Do I need to mark the original position of my ball before taking relief from a situation under the Rules?"
> 
> Answer: "No. It is always advisable to mark the original position of the ball when taking relief, but there is no obligation on the player to do so."


Okay ya got me I can't read the Queen's English


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Rick: Rule 27... the ball is out of bounds you find it bring it back into play and drop how


The only drop for out of bounds is back where you hit the shot from. Out of bounds is always stroke and distance. If you know or suspect that there is a chance that it's OB, just play another and call it a provisional ball if there is any doubt about the original ball. That way you are covered either way.


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> The only drop for out of bounds is back where you hit the shot from. Out of bounds is always stroke and distance. If you know or suspect that there is a chance that it's OB, just play another and call it a provisional ball if there is any doubt about the original ball. That way you are covered either way.


Okay, I don't play in tournaments so the practice of dropping inbounds during general play is for speed then? so the drop is for the lost ball or am I off base here after previous discussions?


----------



## stevel1017

lost ball is also stroke and distance. drops are for hazards
to speed up play the provisional ball is hit


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## broken tee

stevel1017 said:


> lost ball is also stroke and distance. drops are for hazards
> to speed up play the provisional ball is hit


Then I'm seeing a lot of rule violations in general play


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## stevel1017

and you probably will too, but in league play (money on the line) you usually don't (some still will cheat of course)


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Then I'm seeing a lot of rule violations in general play


Most players are either: 

A. Ignorant of the provisional ball rule... 

or 

B. Too embarrassed to go back and hit another one under the eyes of the following players.

I've had to do it more than a few times during 20 years of playing in Men's club tournaments, but now it only happens on those rare occasions when the ball should have been found, but for whatever reason wasn't where it was expected to be.  If I hit a shot that has any appearance of a chance of being lost or OB, I play provisional ball.


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## stevel1017

I have had to do it too Rick, I call it the walk (or ride) of shame


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## Surtees

when we are just having a friendly round and a ball is lost we have a house rule of a stroke and them a drop, but this is just for speed of play and we know it's not in the rules but it works for us. We do play a provisional on tee off if we think it might be lost. tournament play is different of course. enjoy


----------



## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> when we are just having a friendly round and a ball is lost we have a house rule of a stroke and them a drop, but this is just for speed of play and we know it's not in the rules but it works for us. We do play a provisional on tee off if we think it might be lost. tournament play is different of course. enjoy


If you do it that way and you want to more closely follow the rules, then you should take 2 strokes for it. Since the correct procedure is stroke and distance, which is generally equivalent to 2 strokes, to be fair you should still assess yourself the same penalty. You are still getting a huge break, because nothing says that you wouldn't lose the next ball you hit as well, and the next one after that. By taking your shortcut you are ensuring that you never lose more than one ball for that shot. 

I've been asked to explain the proper procedure for taking penalty relief from a water hazard. This covered fairly well by Rule 26-1, but I'll give it a whirl.

You have hit your tee shot into a water hazard. What do you do? Here's the definitive answer... it depends.  If the hazard is a regular water hazard, marked with yellow lines or stakes, then you have only 2 possible options. 

1. You can (26-1a) play a ball again from the same place as the previous stroke was played from, and if that was the teeing ground, you may tee the ball. 

2. You can (26-1b) determine the exact point where the ball *last* crossed the margin of the hazard, draw a line from the hole to that point, then drop back on that line as far as you wish, but you must stay on that line. The line is not a 2 yard wide path... it should be determined as precisely as possible, and the drop must be made on the line. Contrary to the popular myth, you do NOT drop back on the line of flight that the ball took as it went into the hazard. The only thing that the line of flight is used for is to determine the point where the ball crossed into the hazard.

If the ball is in a lateral water hazard, marked with red lines or stakes, then you still have both of the above procedures plus a third option.

3. You can (26-1c) determine the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard, measure 2 clublengths from that point but not nearer the hole, and drop a ball outside of the hazard within that 2 clublength radius. You can also determine the point on the opposite side of the lateral water hazard that is equidistant from the as the point where the ball crossed into the hazard and drop within 2 clublengths of that point.

When dropped under Option b or c, the ball cannot first hit the ground within the hazard, it cannot again come to rest within the hazard, it can't roll more than 2 clublengths from where it first struck the ground, nor can it come to rest closer to the hole than the point where it last crossed into the hazard. In any of those cases the ball must be redropped. If the ball does not come to rest correctly after the second drop, then the player must place the ball on the spot where it first hit the ground after the second drop.

Any questions, Bob?


----------



## broken tee

Good we were correct for one point not sure now on the other. the guestion was brought up when my partner put one in the drink from the fairway; where and how to drop. The other half of our foursome is as rule challenged as I am. he or they stated you drop on the line at point of entry and we said no its leteral at point of entery. the only thing we weren't sure of how far off the line of the hazard, so we went two club lengths and I think that was the correct move. Now that I reread your post we did do it right.
what do you say Rick and what questions do I need to answer


----------



## Surtees

Fourputt said:


> If you do it that way and you want to more closely follow the rules, then you should take 2 strokes for it. Since the correct procedure is stroke and distance, which is generally equivalent to 2 strokes, to be fair you should still assess yourself the same penalty. You are still getting a huge break, because nothing says that you wouldn't lose the next ball you hit as well, and the next one after that. By taking your shortcut you are ensuring that you never lose more than one ball for that shot.


in thinking about it you are right about tyaking two strokes for it, I will suggest this to my playing group as I did say though this rule is only use for casual rounds. I've been lucky lately I've only had to use this rule once or twice in my last few rounds.


----------



## Surtees

heres a new one

Question: "If my ball lies just off the green, am I allowed to remove sand and loose soil which is on the green?"

Answer: "Yes. Sand and loose soil are loose impediments on the putting green. The position of the ball is irrelevant in this case."


----------



## broken tee

Surtees said:


> heres a new one
> 
> Question: "If my ball lies just off the green, am I allowed to remove sand and loose soil which is on the green?"
> 
> Answer: "Yes. Sand and loose soil are loose impediments on the putting green. The position of the ball is irrelevant in this case."


Luke, Luke,Luke my friend, please, if you're going to ask a question on the rules would allow this old *&%$ard a chance to answer the #$%@* question!


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Luke, Luke,Luke my friend, please, if you're going to ask a question on the rules would allow this old *&%$ard a chance to answer the #$%@* question!


Ok.... is there anyplace else where you are allowed to remove sand or loose soil before your stroke? :dunno:


----------



## Surtees

Rick I'm pretty sure the only other place you can do this is in the tee up box.


----------



## Surtees

broken tee said:


> Luke, Luke,Luke my friend, please, if you're going to ask a question on the rules would allow this old *&%$ard a chance to answer the #$%@* question!


I can do that if you wish Bob. I'm just not as good as Rick with trying to confuse us all.


----------



## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> Rick I'm pretty sure the only other place you can do this is in the tee up box.



Ding ding ding.... we have a winner. And the prize is............



.......... a hearty CONGRATULATIONS!!! from all participants. :cheeky4:


----------



## Surtees

Fourputt said:


> Ding ding ding.... we have a winner. And the prize is............
> 
> 
> 
> .......... a hearty CONGRATULATIONS!!! from all participants. :cheeky4:


THANK YOU THANK YOU ALL I've work long and hard on this and I would like to thank all my.... Bugger this GO ME:headbang:


----------



## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> Ding ding ding.... we have a winner. And the prize is............
> 
> 
> 
> .......... a hearty CONGRATULATIONS!!! from all participants. :cheeky4:


That's cold Rick.. I feel like a divot Good job Luke


----------



## Surtees

broken tee said:


> That's cold Rick.. I feel like a divot Good job Luke


Thanks Bob I see you've upgraded in the world your now a divot.:cheeky4:


----------



## Surtees

Question: "If, when measuring my two club-lengths to take relief for an unplayable ball, this puts me in a bunker, can I drop in the bunker?"


----------



## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> Question: "If, when measuring my two club-lengths to take relief for an unplayable ball, this puts me in a bunker, can I drop in the bunker?"


Yes. Decision 28/3:



> 28/4 Ball Deemed Unplayable Through the Green Dropped in Hazard
> 
> Q. A player’s ball lies through the green. The player deems the ball unplayable. In proceeding under Rule 28b or c, the player drops a ball in a hazard. Is this permissible?
> 
> A. Yes.


A bunker is classified as a hazard so this decision applies.


----------



## Surtees

your correct jee that one didn't last long did it?


----------



## Surtees

A new one for the new year sorry it's been a little while
Question: "What do I do if I tee off outside the teeing ground in stroke play?"


----------



## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> A new one for the new year sorry it's been a little while
> Question: "What do I do if I tee off outside the teeing ground in stroke play?"


You go sit in the corner and think about what you did, Mister!!! Then stay after class and write on the blackboard 100 times "I will never violate Rule 11-4b again."


----------



## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> You go sit in the corner and think about what you did, Mister!!! Then stay after class and write on the blackboard 100 times "I will never violate Rule 11-4b again."


I'm doing this in a rush before my students get here, if the ball is in play or the player attempts to correct a mistake in accordance with 11-4a

How was your round Rick... You lucky #$%*ard


----------



## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> You go sit in the corner and think about what you did, Mister!!! Then stay after class and write on the blackboard 100 times "I will never violate Rule 11-4b again."


I'm doing this in a rush before my students get here, if the ball is in play or the player attempts to correct a mistake in accordance with 11-4a I quoted match play

How was your round Rick... You lucky #$%*ard


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> I'm doing this in a rush before my students get here, if the ball is in play or the player attempts to correct a mistake in accordance with 11-4a
> 
> How was your round Rick... You lucky #$%*ard


You lost me here. Not sure where you are headed talking about 11-4a???


----------



## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> You lost me here. Not sure where you are headed talking about 11-4a???


 I looked on the USGA web site and hastily quoted match play not stroke on page 16 of 192 and you still didn't answer my question.


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> I looked on the USGA web site and hastily quoted match play not stroke on page 16 of 192 and you still didn't answer my question.


Yesterday's round was horrid.... but at least I was playing. Today I played 9 holes... better golf and better weather. It was a balmy 65° today, with bright sun and no wind.


----------



## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> Yesterday's round was horrid.... but at least I was playing. Today I played 9 holes... better golf and better weather. It was a balmy 65° today, with bright sun and no wind.


Good for You..the father of one of my students went to Mesquite, Nevada and is playing in the Mesquite shootout.
$350.00 for 3 rounds, entry fee and 3nights in the casino's hotel I think thats a steal.


----------



## Surtees

Here is the simple answer now that I am back from the corner and have written my lines

Answer: "There is a two-stroke penalty and you must play a ball from inside the teeing ground before starting the next hole. If you are playing the last hole, you must announce your intention before you have the left the green. (Strokes played with the original ball do not count towards your score.)"


----------



## Surtees

Question: "May a player practice on the practice putting green between two holes during a stroke play round?"


----------



## broken tee

Surtees said:


> Question: "May a player practice on the practice putting green between two holes during a stroke play round?"



No, Based on rule 7 :thumbsdown: :thumbsup:


----------



## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> Question: "May a player practice on the practice putting green between two holes during a stroke play round?"


Yes. Based on rule 7-2b.


----------



## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> Yes. Based on rule 7-2b.


I stink when it comes to this. I have to learn how to read again. I'll beat you one day Rickmister


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> I stink when it comes to this. I have to learn how to read again. I'll beat you one day Rickmister


Just for grins I'll give you some background. I first joined the USGA as an associate (only clubs could be members at that time... the policy has since been amended) in 1987. Part of the membership packet is a copy of the Rules of Golf. I read it from cover to cover and while I was fascinated, like most people I didn't understand everything I read. But I started carrying the book in my bag when I played, and anytime I didn't know the correct procedure, I looked it up. Sometimes it was on the next tee box as I didn't want to hold up play, but I did it as soon as I could while the case was still fresh in my mind. In this way I at least got familiar with the rules and how the book is organized. 

Next I sent away for a copy of the decisions...I think that was in 1990 or 91 after I'd been in the Men's Club for a couple of years. I was enthralled by that book... reading all the scenarios and the rulings made from them was fascinating to me. In the late 90's I was elected to Men's Club Board of Directors, and the club paid my enrollment into my first USGA Rules Workshop. I was on the club rules committee for 4 years.... for part of that time I WAS the rules committee. I also sat in on a couple of half day seminars at the Denver Golf Expo that's held here in late winter each year. Then lots of interaction on the internet on several golf forums like this, a full 4 day USGA/PGA Rules Workshop last year ($250 paid for out of my own pocket), and here I am. 

It's been a long haul and I still struggle with some of the concepts, especially in a scenario where there are multiple infractions and you have to sort out all of the incorrect actions and determine which ones take precedence. I intend to attend another USGA workshop the next time it's in Denver... this year the closest one is in Albuquerque. 

Anyway, I didn't get to this point by accident... I got here because I love golf and I love the principles and traditions of the game. If you're interested I'll post a fun read here. I have a copy of the original 13 rules of golf from the first time they were written down in 1745 in Edinburgh, Scotland. It's interesting to see where some of our current rules originated, and how the face of the game has changed while still being recognizable as the game they played 260 years ago. I'll start a new thread and copy that in there. They won't take much longer to read than this post....


----------



## Surtees

that explains alot thanks rick and yes you were right about my last question. I like the original 13 rules too.


----------



## Surtees

Question: Q. "Is my ball considered to be in a water hazard if half of it touches the hazard line, and half of it is outside the hazard line?"


----------



## broken tee

Surtees said:


> Question: Q. "Is my ball considered to be in a water hazard if half of it touches the hazard line, and half of it is outside the hazard line?"


I say: you can decide to play it as it lies or take a penalty stroke if is laterral hazard play it or hit over an take a stroke or play it two club lengths from the line and a penalty stroke


----------



## Surtees

A. "Yes, see the Definition of “Lateral Water Hazard” or “Water Hazard”.



Answer: "A. Yes. See Rule 7-2."


----------



## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> A. "Yes, see the Definition of “Lateral Water Hazard” or “Water Hazard”.
> 
> 
> 
> Answer: "A. Yes. See Rule 7-2."


Well, gee. You have to give it some time. I read this yesterday but I wanted to see what some people thought before I gave my answer. Now you've spoiled it. Nobody else is gong to answer after that.

The answer is yes, the ball is in the water hazard.

A ball is the hazard if any part of it touches the hazard. Also the margin of the hazard extends vertically upwards and downwards. That means that even if the edge of the ball overhangs the margin but doesn't actually touch the ground in the hazard, under the rules it's still in the hazard. Stakes or lines which define the hazard are in the hazard.

What that means is that you can proceed under Rule 26-1 (options a, b, or c) or you can play the ball as it lies. If you choose to play the ball as it lies, you cannot ground your club at address, you cannot move any loose impediments which lie within or touch the hazard, and you cannot do anything that might be construed as testing the surface of the hazard.


----------



## broken tee

Surtees said:


> A. "Yes, see the Definition of “Lateral Water Hazard” or “Water Hazard”.
> 
> 
> 
> Answer: "A. Yes. See Rule 7-2."


AH! SH$T I didn't say yes


----------



## Surtees

I know you didn't say yes Bob so that makes you WRONG:cheeky4:


----------



## broken tee

Surtees said:


> I know you didn't say yes Bob so that makes you WRONG:cheeky4:


Well! if you're going to be so anal about this I'm just...Oh! what eever! Hows that for teenager?


----------



## Surtees

come on Bob act your age not your shoe size!


----------



## Surtees

Question: Q. "If I take relief from a water hazard and my dropped ball comes to rest outside the hazard but I am standing in the hazard, may I re-drop the ball?"


----------



## stevel1017

You MUST redrop, you must take COMPLETE relief


----------



## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> Question: Q. "If I take relief from a water hazard and my dropped ball comes to rest outside the hazard but I am standing in the hazard, may I re-drop the ball?"


No you may not re-drop. The only requirement is the the BALL is no longer in the hazard. As long as the drop was made correctly under Rule 26-1 and Rule 20-2 then the ball is in play. Where the player is standing has no bearing on this procedure. 

Steve's explanation would apply if the player was taking relief under Rules 24 or 25.


----------



## broken tee

Surtees said:


> Question: Q. "If I take relief from a water hazard and my dropped ball comes to rest outside the hazard but I am standing in the hazard, may I re-drop the ball?"


Rick is being kind to you... you're getting wet. at 44c tempt in your area you'll be dry by the time you're ready to putt. :headbang: You are lucky you aren't playing up north or in Florida they have creatures in them water hazards.


----------



## Surtees

Yep Ricks got it again ....


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## Surtees

Now I don't know the answer to thos one

Q. Do you have to tee the ball up when playing in the tee off box?

I ask this because on short par 3's when i play with a iron I dont tee up am i allowed to do this?


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## stevel1017

No, you are not required to tee it up


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## broken tee

Surtees said:


> Now I don't know the answer to thos one
> 
> Q. Do you have to tee the ball up when playing in the tee off box?
> 
> I ask this because on short par 3's when i play with a iron I dont tee up am i allowed to do this?



I've seen it done both ways on par 3's, but on par 4's and 5's never I guess its at your option. I wouldn't even know where to begin looking in the rules except the index. good question


----------



## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> Now I don't know the answer to thos one
> 
> Q. Do you have to tee the ball up when playing in the tee off box?
> 
> I ask this because on short par 3's when i play with a iron I dont tee up am i allowed to do this?


You are not required to tee the ball, but why wouldn't you? Even if you use a broken tee and set it very low, you will still have a better lie than putting the ball on the ground. Several top pros (Trevino and Palmer for 2)have commented on this, stating that they can't understand why a player wouldn't take advantage of the opportunity to guarantee himself a perfect lie when he has the chance. 

You don't have to tee it up an inch off the ground. For a short iron I press the tee in until the top of the tee is flush with the top of the grass on the tee box. It just goes farther toward ensuring that I make crisp contact with the ball, with less chance of chunking it.:thumbsup:


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## Surtees

I've try the really low tee up sometimes and I seem to hit it better striaght of the ground yes I get you get a cleaner lie of a tee but the tee off boxes are normally preety flat so I still pick where to put my ball within the correct zone.


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> It just goes farther toward ensuring that I make crisp contact with the ball, with less chance of chunking it.:thumbsup:


Rick: Even though we've never played golf, I've told you that I'm a high handicapper, but you would have been impressed with the round I had today, it scared the hell out of me every thing just fell together. good ball control and placement the short game was impressive even in the sand and I was a dead eye with the putting. :thumbsup:


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## Surtees

getting a good score on tiger wood golf doesn't count Bob


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Rick: Even though we've never played golf, I've told you that I'm a high handicapper, but you would have been impressed with the round I had today, it scared the hell out of me every thing just fell together. good ball control and placement the short game was impressive even in the sand and I was a dead eye with the putting. :thumbsup:


Sounds great. I was not quite a high capper, but was playing to a 16 or 17 when I had my golfing epiphany and shot a one over par 73 in the 3rd round of the club championship in 1989. That was the first time I ever broke 80, and it's still my lifetime low score. Maybe it's happening for you. :thumbsup:


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## NFFC

Nice thread :thumbsup::thumbsup:.


----------



## Surtees

NFFC said:


> Nice thread :thumbsup::thumbsup:.


thanks and welcome to posting Keep it up


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## Surtees

heres another one.
Question: Q. "In match play, a player tees off from in front of the markers. What is the penalty?"


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## broken tee

Surtees said:


> getting a good score on tiger wood golf doesn't count Bob


Your just jealous that a more mature guy can move the mouse better than you young whimps:headbang:


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## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> heres another one.
> Question: Q. "In match play, a player tees off from in front of the markers. What is the penalty?"


No penalty. The ball is in play unless his opponent asks him to play the stroke over from the proper place. In that case the first stroke is recalled (meaning it isn't counted) and the player gets a do over. His opponent would likely only recall the stroke if the player hit a particularly good shot. 

If I was his opponent I would definitely let him know what he did... something like "Nice shot. Next hole try hitting it from INSIDE the teeing ground!"  That way maybe he's still thinking about that instead of how he's playing the next shot and I get a chance for an easy win on that hole. :headbang:


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## Surtees

mind games i love it rick and yes your correct.

oh and bob I may not click as quick as you but that because I'm to busy on a real course


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## broken tee

Surtees said:


> mind games i love it rick and yes your correct.
> 
> oh and bob I may not click as quick as you but that because I'm to busy on a real course


What minature golf is a real course?:rofl:


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## Surtees

it's better then the computer... only just


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## broken tee

*Damaged ball*

I haven't researched this out, I believe you cannot change the ball in play until the end of the hole. what happens if the ball gets a cut or half the cover is off and flapping in the breeze before the end of the hole. Do you play the ball? take a penalty or is it disqualification if not played.

With technology the way it is this situation is unlikely to happen, but what if?:dunno:


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## stevel1017

You must show the ball to your fellow competetors, and if they agree the ball is unplayable, you may remove the ball from play and substitute one no penalty. Of course you must mark your ball posisition and place the new ball exactly where the old one was


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## broken tee

stevel1017 said:


> You must show the ball to your fellow competetors, and if they agree the ball is unplayable, you may remove the ball from play and substitute one no penalty. Of course you must mark your ball posisition and place the new ball exactly where the old one was


 Thanks Stevel for an old weekend hacker you come through fast.


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## Surtees

In match play to you have to replace the ball with a ball of the same type. you can't replace a wilson ball with a srixon ball for example.


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## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> In match play to you have to replace the ball with a ball of the same type. you can't replace a wilson ball with a srixon ball for example.


You will have to show me where it says that...



> 5-3. Ball Unfit for Play
> A ball is unfit for play if it is visibly cut, cracked or out of shape. A ball is not unfit for play solely because mud or other materials adhere to it, its surface is scratched or scraped or its paint is damaged or discolored.
> 
> If a player has reason to believe his ball has become unfit for play during play of the hole being played, he may lift the ball, without penalty, to determine whether it is unfit.
> 
> Before lifting the ball, the player must announce his intention to his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play and mark the position of the ball. He may then lift and examine it, provided that he gives his opponent, marker or fellow-competitor an opportunity to examine the ball and observe the lifting and replacement. The ball must not be cleaned when lifted under Rule 5-3.
> 
> If the player fails to comply with all or any part of this procedure or if he lifts the ball without having reason to believe that it has become unfit for play during play of the hole being played, he incurs a penalty of one stroke.
> 
> If it is determined that the ball has become unfit for play during play of the hole being played, the player may substitute another ball, placing it on the spot where the original ball lay. Otherwise, the original ball must be replaced. If a player substitutes a ball when not permitted and makes a stroke at the wrongly substituted ball, he incurs the general penalty for a breach of Rule 5-3, but there is no additional penalty under this Rule or 15-2.
> 
> If a ball breaks into pieces as a result of a stroke, the stroke is canceled and the player must play a ball, without penalty, as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was played (see Rule 20-5).
> 
> *PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 5-3:
> Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes. *If a player incurs the general penalty for breach of Rule 5-3, there is no additional penalty under this Rule.
> 
> Note 1: If the opponent, marker or fellow-competitor wishes to dispute a claim of unfitness, he must do so before the player plays another ball.
> 
> Note 2: If the original lie of a ball to be placed or replaced has been altered, see Rule 20-3b.


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## broken tee

I haven't done this in a while; but those water balls that Luke collects because he's too cheap to buy good ones, he puts a slice in the cover he declares the ball unfit for play, as steve pointed out doesn't the opponent varify the ball unfit or is it the players word? I think I found a way for luke to knock off ten strokes from those duffed shots from those cheap balls he uses. of course that could be a long nine holes :


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## Surtees

i see your point bob but how does it save me strokes?

aslso Rick i read that a ball must be replaced with a like ball somewhere i'll see if i can find it.


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## stevel1017

Surtees said:


> In match play to you have to replace the ball with a ball of the same type. you can't replace a wilson ball with a srixon ball for example.


actually you can most of the time
Rules Frame

last paragraph
"When changing balls, the player is permitted to substitute a ball of another brand or type unless the Committee has adopted the One Ball Condition of Competition (see Appendix I; Part C; Section 1c). This optional condition (usually referred to as ‘The One Ball Rule’) is generally adopted only in events that are limited to professional golfers or highly-skilled amateur golfers. Generally, this condition of competition is not adopted in club-level competitions."


----------



## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> i see your point bob but how does it save me strokes?
> 
> aslso Rick i read that a ball must be replaced with a like ball somewhere i'll see if i can find it.


That is only required if the committee has instituted the one ball condition as a condition of the competition (Appendix I - Part C - Item 1c). It can apply in both match and stroke play, but it is very rare that you will see it at any but the highest levels of competition. The PGA Tour has it in effect in all tournaments... a player cannot change ball type at any time during a stipulated round.

I have never seen this condition in effect in a any tournament I've ever played in.


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## Surtees

Yep I found it, it was in some PGA rules I was reading and as steve and rick have said above it only applies if the committee enforces it and it will never apply to any comps I play in because I'm no where near a professional level....


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## broken tee

Surtees said:


> i see your point bob but how does it save me strokes?
> 
> aslso Rick i read that a ball must be replaced with a like ball somewhere i'll see if i can find it.


You swing badly declare the ball unfit take the shot over again. should be shooting 36... by the time you reach the 2nd tee


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> That is only required if the committee has instituted the one ball condition as a condition of the competition (Appendix I - Part C - Item 1c). It can apply in both match and stroke play, but it is very rare that you will see it at any but the highest levels of competition. The PGA Tour has it in effect in all tournaments... a player cannot change ball type at any time during a stipulated round.
> 
> I have never seen this condition in effect in a any tournament I've ever played in.


Isn't it all so true that in professional play that the ball must have an identifying mark of the player.


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Isn't it all so true that in professional play that the ball must have an identifying mark of the player.


Not mandatory, but any player is being foolish not to mark his ball. Mine are always marked, regardless of whether it's a tournament or not. That way I never have any problem finding and playing the right ball. It's a bit silly to risk a 2 stroke penalty when it's so simple to just carry a Sharpie with you and put an initial or a few dots or whatever on the ball before you tee it up. I buy them a dozen at a time and I mark all 12 balls as soon as I get home with them.


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## broken tee

Now that you mention it...Duh! that is a common sense practice.


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> Not mandatory, but any player is being foolish not to mark his ball. Mine are always marked, regardless of whether it's a tournament or not. That way I never have any problem finding and playing the right ball. It's a bit silly to risk a 2 stroke penalty when it's so simple to just carry a Sharpie with you and put an initial or a few dots or whatever on the ball before you tee it up. I buy them a dozen at a time and I mark all 12 balls as soon as I get home with them.


Rick: My golf buddy is recovering from an injury and can't fully close his left hand around the club. In general play we don't see a problem, but there is a tournement in Nevada and we are thinking of wrapping the grips so he can close his hand tight enough to swing. what do you think?:dunno:


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Rick: My golf buddy is recovering from an injury and can't fully close his left hand around the club. In general play we don't see a problem, but there is a tournement in Nevada and we are thinking of wrapping the grips so he can close his hand tight enough to swing. what do you think?:dunno:


Should be ok. This rule applies:



> *14-3. Artificial Devices, Unusual Equipment and Unusual Use of Equipment*
> 
> Except as provided in the Rules, during a stipulated round the player must not use any artificial device or unusual equipment, or use any equipment in an unusual manner:
> 
> a. That might assist him in making a stroke or in his play; or
> b. For the purpose of gauging or measuring distance or conditions that might affect his play; or
> c. That might assist him in gripping the club, except that:
> 
> (i) plain gloves may be worn;
> (ii) resin, powder and drying or moisturizing agents may be used; and
> (iii) a towel or handkerchief may be wrapped around the grip.
> 
> *Exceptions:*
> 
> 1. A player is not in breach of this Rule if (a) the equipment or device is designed for or has the effect of alleviating a medical condition, (b) the player has a legitimate medical reason to use the equipment or device, and (c) the Committee is satisfied that its use does not give the player any undue advantage over other players.
> 
> 2. A player is not in breach of this Rule if he uses equipment in a traditionally accepted manner.
> 
> Penalty for Breach of Rule 14-3: Disqualification.


Note the first exception. It might be wise to get a statement from his doctor to show to the tournament committee.


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## broken tee

Thanks Rick


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## Surtees

Question: Q. ""I had a long putt which hit the flagstick in the hole and bounced out. Is there a penalty?"


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## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> Question: Q. ""I had a long putt which hit the flagstick in the hole and bounced out. Is there a penalty?"


Yes. It's 2 strokes on you. And you still have to putt out. 

Unless you were putting from off the green, in which case no penalty.


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## Surtees

yes rick you are right I was going to leave this open for more discussion but oh well.

Answer:
"Yes, the player would incur a two-stroke penalty if the putt was made from the green."

Under Rule 17-3, the player's ball must not strike:
a) The flagstick when it attended, removed or held up.
b) The person attending or holding up the flagstick or anything carried by them.
c) The flagstick in the hole, unattended, when the stroke has been made on the putting green.

The ball must then played as it lies.

If a stroke played from an area of the course other than the green strikes the flagstick, there is no penalty.


----------



## broken tee

Surtees said:


> yes rick you are right I was going to leave this open for more discussion but oh well.
> 
> Answer:
> "Yes, the player would incur a two-stroke penalty if the putt was made from the green."
> 
> Under Rule 17-3, the player's ball must not strike:
> a) The flagstick when it attended, removed or held up.
> b) The person attending or holding up the flagstick or anything carried by them.
> c) The flagstick in the hole, unattended, when the stroke has been made on the putting green.
> 
> The ball must then played as it lies.
> 
> If a stroke played from an area of the course other than the green strikes the flagstick, there is no penalty.


Does this hold true then if the flag is pulled, laid on the green and someone putts and hits pin with a power putt? :dunno:


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## stevel1017

yes it is still a penaly. It used to be if you went to move the flag that is laying on the green while the put was in motion (so the putt wouldn't hit it) you also got a 2 stroke penalty, but they changed that rule


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## Surtees

Bob do you mean if you power put and hit the back of the cup and it bounces out or do you mean that you hit the flag?


----------



## Fourputt

Here's one that happened to one of my playing companions during yesterday's round.

The 7th hole is a short par 4 that parallels the northern boundary of the course. There is a tiny (about 2 feet wide) irrigation channel that runs along the left side of the hole between the rough and the OB fence. This early in the season there is not yet any water in the ditch. The ditch is a lateral water hazard, and the margin is marked about 10 feet right of the ditch itself, at the edge of the maintained rough. There is brush and tall grass that grows along the little ditch so that balls hit in there are rarely found. The boundary fence is about 5 feet tall, just plain 4" open square wire. As we were playing the back tees, the tee shot is normally a layup as there is a lake that bisects the fairway starting at about 200 yards on the left and angling across the hole to about 260 yards on the right side of the fairway. Here's what happened:

One guy hit his tee shot and hit a low pulled hook toward the hazard and the boundary fence. The ball was about 15 feet off the ground when it snicked through the small branches of an overhanging tree and we couldn't see it land. The original trajectory would have probably taken it out of bounds, but it was impossible to tell if the branches it hit deflected it into the lateral hazard or if it continued on its original path. The player played a provisional ball in the supposition that the original might be OB. The original ball was not found in the hazard (although 2 other balls were found), and there were several balls visible in the llama pasture across the fence, but none close enough to identify or retrieve. There was strong disagreement within our foursome as to the ruling. Here is the question:

Do you assume that the ball is in the lateral water hazard, with penalty of one stroke and drop within 2 clublengths of the point where the ball crossed into the hazard, so that he is playing his 3rd stroke from there? Or is the original ball deemed to be out of bounds, so that the provisional ball becomes the ball in play, lying 3 and hitting 4?


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## Surtees

to declear the ball in the hazard wouldn't you need to have a point of entry? I think the way this would of been handled with my normal group would of be the drop but I'm not sure what the actual ruling is


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## stevel1017

I'm not sure of the ruling either, but I am going to guess, since it could not be determined if the ball was in the hazard or OB, the ball could not be identified, hence the ball should be deemed lost (stroke and distance). Since he hit the provisional ball, this now becomes the ball in play


----------



## broken tee

I say rule 18-1 and 27-1 cover this. shooting 3.


----------



## Fourputt

Ok... while you've got the procedure right, nobody quite hit the reason for it. This is key, because the next time you might make a different ruling and get yourself in a jam for it. Here is the actual paragraph from Rule 26-1 that applies:



> 26-1. Relief for Ball in Water Hazard
> 
> It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck toward a water hazard is in the hazard. In order to apply this Rule, *it must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard*. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.


I added the bold to the key phrase. Regardless of any other circumstances, that phrase MUST apply or the ball is deemed to NOT be in the hazard, but lost elsewhere, which will always revert to a stroke and distance penalty.


----------



## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> Ok... while you've got the procedure right, nobody quite hit the reason for it. This is key, because the next time you might make a different ruling and get yourself in a jam for it. Here is the actual paragraph from Rule 26-1 that applies:
> 
> 
> 
> I added the bold to the key phrase. Regardless of any other circumstances, that phrase MUST apply or the ball is deemed to NOT be in the hazard, but lost elsewhere, which will always revert to a stroke and distance penalty.


The last time I heard "BOLD" Was charlton Heston in Moses when he parted the water hazard Oh! that was Behold


----------



## Surtees

broken tee said:


> The last time I heard "BOLD" Was charlton Heston in Moses when he parted the water hazard Oh! that was Behold



Thanks rick that was an interesting hazard that occured.

Bob: you were standing next to moses when he said that weren't you??:headbang:


----------



## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> Ok... while you've got the procedure right, nobody quite hit the reason for it. This is key, because the next time you might make a different ruling and get yourself in a jam for it. Here is the actual paragraph from Rule 26-1 that applies:
> 
> 
> 
> I added the bold to the key phrase. Regardless of any other circumstances, that phrase MUST apply or the ball is deemed to NOT be in the hazard, but lost elsewhere, which will always revert to a stroke and distance penalty.


never mind I'm wore out to ask a sane question


----------



## Surtees

Question: Q. "My score card had a score recorded for each individual hole, however the totals were not recorded. Am I disqualified?"


----------



## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> Question: Q. "My score card had a score recorded for each individual hole, however the totals were not recorded. Am I disqualified?"


No. The player is only responsible for the individual hole scores, not for adding them up.


----------



## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> No. The player is only responsible for the individual hole scores, not for adding them up.


Okay; then when the pro's turn in the score card what are they signing for the total score or the accuracy of each hole?


----------



## Surtees

yep you got it rick 

Answer:
There is no penalty. See Rule 33-5. The Committee is responsible for the addition of scores on the score card.


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Okay; then when the pro's turn in the score card what are they signing for the total score or the accuracy of each hole?


They play the same rules as anyone else.


----------



## 373

Interesting... I had never really thought about that before. It seemed obvious to me that each score on a hole has to be accurate because that's how we hear the rule quoted all the time, to the extent that if you sign for a lower score as a result of an incorrect score on a hole, you are required to accept the higher score or be disqualified for a lower score. On the other hand, does it say nothing about the total? If I shoot 72 and sign a card with a total that says 71, (in my dreams!), am I not disqualified?


----------



## Fourputt

DennisM said:


> Interesting... I had never really thought about that before. It seemed obvious to me that each score on a hole has to be accurate because that's how we hear the rule quoted all the time, to the extent that if you sign for a lower score as a result of an incorrect score on a hole, you are required to accept the higher score or be disqualified for a lower score. On the other hand, does it say nothing about the total? If I shoot 72 and sign a card with a total that says 71, (in my dreams!), am I not disqualified?


Not if each hole score is recorded correctly. 

Rule 6-6 reads:



> 6-6. Scoring in Stroke Play
> a. Recording Scores
> 
> After each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it. On completion of the round, the marker must sign the score card and hand it to the competitor. If more than one marker records the scores, each must sign for the part for which he is responsible.
> 
> b. Signing and Returning Score Card
> 
> After completion of the round, *the competitor should check his score for each hole* and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible.
> 
> Penalty for Breach of Rule 6-6b: Disqualification.
> 
> c. Alteration of Score Card
> 
> No alteration may be made on a score card after the competitor has returned it to the Committee.
> 
> *d. Wrong Score for Hole
> 
> The competitor is responsible for the correctness of the score recorded for each hole on his score card.* If he returns a score for any hole lower than actually taken, he is disqualified. If he returns a score for any hole higher than actually taken, the score as returned stands.
> 
> Note 1: *The Committee is responsible for the addition of scores* and application of the handicap recorded on the score card - see Rule 33-5.


----------



## broken tee

That is good to know thanks....Hey Rick, Luke and Dennis good hear from ya. spring hasn't arrived yet maybe the beginning of May. we are still in the gap called sprinter.


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> That is good to know thanks....Hey Rick, Luke and Dennis good hear from ya. spring hasn't arrived yet maybe the beginning of May. we are still in the gap called sprinter.



We are having a normal Colorado spring.... more snow in the last week than we had in the previous 3 months. With more in the forecast for the remainder of this week. The course was open for play today, but with temps in the 40's and 30 mph winds, it wasn't an attractive option.


----------



## Surtees

we have pretty good weather atm about 20-25C but I haven't made it out for a little while due to having started my degree and working can I get some more time in the day please?


----------



## broken tee

*The Sign says: Winter Rules*

Is there such a set of rules for the winter and another for Summer play. I can't find any.:dunno: I think someone is in the water hazard too much on this one.


----------



## Surtees

i dont think so Bob there are just the rules


----------



## Surtees

Question: Q. "My ball is on the green and a sprinkler head on the green is in my line of putt. Am I entitled to line of putt relief?"


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Is there such a set of rules for the winter and another for Summer play. I can't find any.:dunno: I think someone is in the water hazard too much on this one.


No. There is a local rule than can be instituted in case of need the the USGA calls Preferred Lies(commonly called lift, clean and place or winter rules). It should only be implemented in case of need. but some players use it all winter because they think that there is some sort of official permission. 

I personally don't play winter rules ever, and I don't use the allowed local rule unless it has been invoked for a tournament. I figure that when conditions are less than ideal, it's just a good time to practice those awkward lies.


----------



## broken tee

Surtees said:


> Question: Q. "My ball is on the green and a sprinkler head on the green is in my line of putt. Am I entitled to line of putt relief?"


 Yes,Rule 24-1b then fire the greens keeper for installing a sprinkler on the putting surface


----------



## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> Question: Q. "My ball is on the green and a sprinkler head on the green is in my line of putt. Am I entitled to line of putt relief?"


Yes. In fact you are even entitled to relief if the sprinkler head is on the fringe and the local rule giving relief for obstructions near the green is in force.


----------



## Surtees

Answer:
Yes, see Rule 24-2a. The player may lift the ball, and place it, without penalty, at the nearest point of relief that is not in a hazard. This point may be off the putting green.


----------



## 373

What relief do you get if the sprinkler system turns on just as you are about to putt?


----------



## Fourputt

DennisM said:


> What relief do you get if the sprinkler system turns on just as you are about to putt?


Well, if it's a hot day you get cooled off....


----------



## Surtees

the greens keeper gets comic relief


----------



## Surtees

Question: Q. "My ball comes to rest within inches of a wrong putting green, and I will be standing on the putting green to play my next stroke. Do I have to take relief?"


----------



## stevel1017

i am gonna hazard a guess and say no


----------



## stevel1017

Now for a question of my own. 
This happened in the last tournament I was in. The group behind us caught us on the 5th tee and asked, one of the guys in their group, had his putter, and was bending over to mark his ball, using the putter as sort of a crutch. The shaft broke, I know id a club breaks during normal course of play you can replace it no penalty. Would that be considered normal course of play?


----------



## broken tee

stevel1017 said:


> Now for a question of my own.
> This happened in the last tournament I was in. The group behind us caught us on the 5th tee and asked, one of the guys in their group, had his putter, and was bending over to mark his ball, using the putter as sort of a crutch. The shaft broke, I know id a club breaks during normal course of play you can replace it no penalty. Would that be considered normal course of play?


On Surtees question I'm like you No, but on your question I'd say no also. you have to use clubs you have in the bag that are considered in play.


----------



## 373

Surtees said:


> Question: Q. "My ball comes to rest within inches of a wrong putting green, and I will be standing on the putting green to play my next stroke. Do I have to take relief?"


I'm going to say no because I've seen situations where some pro on television has hit the ball from a cart path. Generally, they report that relief would have kept him from a clear shot to the green, or something like that, so he chose to play it as it lies.

I've also seen them chip from on the green when, because of a curved shape of the green, their ball might be in a position where there was fringe and rough between the ball and the cup. Under the circumstances, they might take a divot and as much as the greens keeper might object, I don't think there's any rule against it.

If we had a thread called "Rules We Should Break," this would be one I would suggest breaking unless you were playing in a really serious tournament. It's been years since I did it, but I have hit the ball to a wrong green and nobody complained when I dropped it off the putting surface. (It was just a casual weekend round) I tend to picture greens keepers as guys in carts with shotguns... not to be messed with.

I simply think it's more important to do all we can to help maintain the courses we play.


----------



## Fourputt

Standing on the green does not give you relief. If your ball lies on a wrong putting green then relief is mandatory under Rule 25-3b. When taking relief under this rule I believe that then relief must be for *both* stance and lie. But as the rule is written you only take relief if the ball itself is lying on the putting surface. 

I've heard of courses using a local rule not allowing the play of a full shot from the apron as well, but there is nothing in Rules of Golf that support this local rule. That said, I think it's a good practice to not be taking huge divots from the green apron....


----------



## broken tee

I think Stevel has a great question...I took a guess at it and I'm curious about the ruling.


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## 373

Fourputt said:


> I think it's a good practice to not be taking huge divots from the green apron....


Like I said... Greenskeepers with shotguns and all that.


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## Fourputt

DennisM said:


> Like I said... Greenskeepers with shotguns and all that.



Goes right along with chipping when your ball lies on the putting green. It's completely legal, but there are darned few players I know who could do it without damaging the green. And again, take a divot from the green and the greenskeeper is going to hunt you down if he hears about it.


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## Fourputt

stevel1017 said:


> Now for a question of my own.
> This happened in the last tournament I was in. The group behind us caught us on the 5th tee and asked, one of the guys in their group, had his putter, and was bending over to mark his ball, using the putter as sort of a crutch. The shaft broke, I know id a club breaks during normal course of play you can replace it no penalty. Would that be considered normal course of play?



Sorry Steve, I missed when you posted this. The answer is yes, that is considered normal usage. If it's done in anger then it can't be replaced.



> 4-3/1 Meaning of Damage Sustained in “Normal Course of Play”
> 
> Q. In Rule 4-3a, what is meant by the term “normal course of play”?
> 
> A. The term “normal course of play” is intended to cover all reasonable acts but specifically excludes cases of abuse.
> 
> In addition to making a stroke, practice swing or practice stroke, examples of acts that are in the “normal course of play” include the following:
> 
> • removing or replacing a club in the bag;
> 
> • using a club to search for or retrieve a ball;
> 
> • *leaning on a club while waiting to play, teeing a ball or removing a ball from the hole;* or
> 
> • accidentally dropping a club.
> 
> Examples of acts that are not in the “normal course of play” include the following:
> 
> • throwing a club in anger or otherwise;
> 
> • “slamming” a club into a bag; or
> 
> • intentionally striking something (e.g., the ground or a tree) with the club other than during a stroke, practice swing or practice stroke.


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## broken tee

*Clarify 14-3*

14-3. Artificial Devices and Unusual Equipment
The United States Golf Association (USGA) reserves the right, at any time, to change the Rules relating to artificial devices, unusual equipment and the unusual use of equipment, and make or change the interpretations relating to these Rules. How does this apply to GPS during tourny or general play?


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> 14-3. Artificial Devices and Unusual Equipment
> The United States Golf Association (USGA) reserves the right, at any time, to change the Rules relating to artificial devices, unusual equipment and the unusual use of equipment, and make or change the interpretations relating to these Rules. How does this apply to GPS during tourny or general play?


Electronic devices are allowed for general play, even for handicap submission without any special considerations. They are only allowed in tournament play if the committee has approved the local rule which allows their use. Most clubs in the US seem to have accepted them in this role. My Men's Club always allows them. The club's tournament hard card has it as a general rule fo all of our tournaments.


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> Electronic devices are allowed for general play, even for handicap submission without any special considerations. They are only allowed in tournament play if the committee has approved the local rule which allows their use. Most clubs in the US seem to have accepted them in this role. My Men's Club always allows them. The club's tournament hard card has it as a general rule fo all of our tournaments.


Do you or anyone reading this think the PGA and LPGA will allow GPS use by the caddie?


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Do you or anyone reading this think the PGA and LPGA will allow GPS use by the caddie?


The caddies don't use GPS (GPS is not accurate enough for their needs) but they DO use laser rangefinders when they walk the course before the start of the tournament and in practice rounds to get accurate distance info to any course features which could possibly come into play. The standard yardage books that the pros have were all created with lasers and they add to those any additional data that they feel might be needed. 

While they can't use them during the competition itself, all of the data in the yardage book was obtained with laser rangefinders.


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## 373

What I heard from friends here who observed the Nationwide players preparation for the tournament near my house was that they found the sprinkler heads and other marked distance devices on the golf course, then used lasers to confirm the distances to other things like bunkers, lakes, canals or greens. They apparently found them all off by as little as a couple yards and as much as 10 yards!

What I also heard was that a few of the caddies apparently worked backwards from the greens on the par 5 holes to find the spot whatever distance back their players wanted to be in so they had the most comfortable wedge into the green. Like we see on television when they lay up to their best wedge distance, it was a priority.

One other thing that impressed me, (Again, I heard, but wasn't there to see), was that a bunch of the caddies helped one another, comparing their distance readings with one another. I guess I was pleasantly surprised to hear that.

Pending knee improvement, I hope I can go to the tournament this summer and see all this for myself.


----------



## Surtees

Question: Q. ""Q. My ball has developed a crack in it after my last shot. May I replace it with another ball before my next stroke?"


----------



## broken tee

Surtees said:


> Question: Q. ""Q. My ball has developed a crack in it after my last shot. May I replace it with another ball before my next stroke?"


I say no. the ball remains in play until holed out.


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## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> Question: Q. ""Q. My ball has developed a crack in it after my last shot. May I replace it with another ball before my next stroke?"


Yes. First you must inform your fellow competitor or opponent of your intention. Then you must mark the ball, lift it and allow your opponent or FC to examine it. If he agrees that it is truly damaged beyond just scuffing it on a cart path or such, then it may be replaced. It must have been damaged during the play of that hole. If you start play of a hole with a damaged ball, then you much finish with it.

Read Rule 5-3 for more complete information.


----------



## Surtees

Answer:

Yes, if it is determined to be unfit for play. See Rule 5-3.

A ball is unfit for play if it is visibly cut, cracked or out of shape. A ball is not unfit for play solely because mud or other materials adhere to it, its surface is scratched or scraped or its paint is damaged or discoloured.

Before lifting the ball for inspection, a player must announce their intention to their marker or fellow competitor and mark the position of the ball.

If the ball is deemed unfit for play, the player may substitute another ball, placing it on the spot where the original ball lay.

If the ball is deemed fit for play, the player must replace it in its original position


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## custom cluber

Imagine the room of fellows who sat a debated the rules, that had to be a long night! I type english Goodly! C/C


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## Surtees

yes you'd need a few drinks to make it though that one!


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## Fourputt

Scenario:

In stroke play, a player hit his tee shot into an area where there is a _lateral water hazard_, but there is also some deep rough which is not part of the hazard, and it is the consensus of the group that his ball probably did not go into the hazard. He elects to play a _provisional ball_ just in case his first ball is lost _through the green_. Without thinking he plays a ball which is identical to and indistinguishable from the first one, and it heads in the same general direction as the first ball. When he gets there he finds both balls. One is unplayable in the hazard, the other is playable in the rough just 10 feet away.

Question: Which ball is in play and how many strokes does it lie?


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## custom cluber

Being he took a second (provisional ball) doesn't that one stand, unless it was the unplayable one then I would assume that he is still on his third stroke. Just takin a guess I didn't do any research, figured I try my luck. C/C


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## stevel1017

I am going to say this is the key "Without thinking he plays a ball which is identical to and indistinguishable from the first one"
since he can't determine which is which, then I think he has to declare both lost, return to the tee and rehit again, hitting 5


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## broken tee

stevel1017 said:


> I am going to say this is the key "Without thinking he plays a ball which is identical to and indistinguishable from the first one"
> since he can't determine which is which, then I think he has to declare both lost, return to the tee and rehit again, hitting 5


I think Steve has the answer


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## Fourputt

Fourputt said:


> Scenario:
> 
> In stroke play, a player hit his tee shot into an area where there is a _lateral water hazard_, but there is also some deep rough which is not part of the hazard, and it is the consensus of the group that his ball probably did not go into the hazard. He elects to play a _provisional ball_ just in case his first ball is lost _through the green_. Without thinking he plays a ball which is identical to and indistinguishable from the first one, and it heads in the same general direction as the first ball. When he gets there he finds both balls. One is unplayable in the hazard, the other is playable in the rough just 10 feet away.
> 
> Question: Which ball is in play and how many strokes does it lie?


Nobody else?


----------



## Surtees

canyouelect which ball to play and play the one not in the hazard and take apenlty for not know which ball it is and be on 3 strokes?


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> Nobody else?


Just to give you crap what kind of answer is "Nobody else"
I say Stevel Has the answer but you know me Rick I've been wrong almost every time:laugh:


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## Fourputt

Hint... Read Decision 27/11.


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> Hint... Read Decision 27/11.


Are you sure thes rules weren't written by the Army? Now what I understood is they moved forward couldn't identify the ball, plus the 5 minute rule comes into play, so he must drop and is shooting 5, plus he has two balls for replacments.


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## Fourputt

Since this situation doesn't exactly match any of the cases in Decision 27/11, it can be a bit confusing. In my opinion, equity must be applied as in Situation 2. Since he found one ball in the Hazard, it seems to me as if that is presumed under Decision 27/11 to be the original ball, and he must proceed under one of the options of Rule 26-1. The second ball, presumed to be the provisional ball, is abandoned. 

My answer to the question is: The ball still lies 1 in the hazard, but after he takes his drop he will be hitting his 3rd. 

I chose this solution because with one ball in a hazard, if that is indeed the original ball, then the provisional ball would have to be ignored. You can't assume that the ball in the rough is the original, because then you would be giving the player a possible advantage that he may not be entitled to. You have to make the assumption that the ball in the water is the original, or you have to deem both balls lost and return to the tee. Since 27/11 allows for this solution to a similar problem, Equity must come into the picture. 

If you were still unsure, then I would advise you to play a second ball under Rule 3-3 and let the competition committee decide.

The best solution to this difficult problem is to never play any ball without your mark on it, and know what ball you hit. If you play a provisional ball, make sure that you can differentiate it from the original, either by using a different numbered ball with your usual mark, or by using a different mark. I will usually play a provisional ball with a big red "P" on it just so there is no doubt.


----------



## 373

That's interesting. I would have thought if you declared a provisional, it would be in play if the original ball was found in a hazard. BUT... not knowing which ball was which, I figured the presumption would be that the ball in the hazard would be the original. I thought declaration of a provisional meant a ball in play would be the provisional unless proven otherwise. Thus the ball in play, not in a hazard, would lie 3.


----------



## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> Since this situation doesn't exactly match any of the cases in Decision 27/11, it can be a bit confusing. In my opinion, equity must be applied as in Situation 2. Since he found one ball in the Hazard, it seems to me as if that is presumed under Decision 27/11 to be the original ball, and he must proceed under one of the options of Rule 26-1. The second ball, presumed to be the provisional ball, is abandoned.
> 
> My answer to the question is: The ball still lies 1 in the hazard, but after he takes his drop he will be hitting his 3rd.
> 
> I chose this solution because with one ball in a hazard, if that is indeed the original ball, then the provisional ball would have to be ignored. You can't assume that the ball in the rough is the original, because then you would be giving the player a possible advantage that he may not be entitled to. You have to make the assumption that the ball in the water is the original, or you have to deem both balls lost and return to the tee. Since 27/11 allows for this solution to a similar problem, Equity must come into the picture.
> 
> If you were still unsure, then I would advise you to play a second ball under Rule 3-3 and let the competition committee decide.
> 
> The best solution to this difficult problem is to never play any ball without your mark on it, and know what ball you hit. If you play a provisional ball, make sure that you can differentiate it from the original, either by using a different numbered ball with your usual mark, or by using a different mark. I will usually play a provisional ball with a big red "P" on it just so there is no doubt.


I understand where you're coming from on this situation, so for the sake of a healthy discussion why is Dennis or my answer less correct plus I went to the USGA and found this: Solution 4: One could argue that both balls are lost. However, it would be inequitable to require the player to return to the tee, playing 5, when the player has found both balls but does not know which is the original and which the provisional. Accordingly, the player must select one of the balls, treat it as his provisional ball and abandon the other. Now I also want to make sure that I understand the 5 minute rule. Thanks Rick; I like this


----------



## 373

broken tee said:


> Now I also want to make sure that I understand the 5 minute rule.


If your pizza isn't delivered in 5 minutes, it's free. 

Basically, the rule says you have 5 minutes to look for a lost ball, at which point you must declare it lost. How you proceed at that point has to do with where you hit your last shot from. If from the tee, it's simple, you go back to the tee and hit 3.

On the other hand, something happened to me Saturday a week ago that I would have to look up.

I lost my second shot on a par 4 hole. My drive was in the fairway. I pushed my second shot towards a bunker. Having not hit the ball very well, I figured I would be short or in the front of the bunker. The ball was never found. It may have buried in the fluffy new sand so badly we couldn't see it. It might have gotten lost in a hole in what was otherwise not so deep grass that you'd expect to lose a ball in it. Under tournament conditions, I suppose I would have had to go back to a spot in the fairway, identifying that spot to be as close as possible to where I had hit my second shot, then playing 4 from there. I guess a touring pro has somewhat of an advantage in that spectators and television could have told him where his ball went.

BUT - is there any remedy to suggest I could have raked the bunker looking for my ball?


----------



## broken tee

DennisM said:


> If your pizza isn't delivered in 5 minutes, it's free.
> 
> Basically, the rule says you have 5 minutes to look for a lost ball, at which point you must declare it lost. How you proceed at that point has to do with where you hit your last shot from. If from the tee, it's simple, you go back to the tee and hit 3.
> 
> On the other hand, something happened to me Saturday a week ago that I would have to look up.
> 
> I lost my second shot on a par 4 hole. My drive was in the fairway. I pushed my second shot towards a bunker. Having not hit the ball very well, I figured I would be short or in the front of the bunker. The ball was never found. It may have buried in the fluffy new sand so badly we couldn't see it. It might have gotten lost in a hole in what was otherwise not so deep grass that you'd expect to lose a ball in it. Under tournament conditions, I suppose I would have had to go back to a spot in the fairway, identifying that spot to be as close as possible to where I had hit my second shot, then playing 4 from there. I guess a touring pro has somewhat of an advantage in that spectators and television could have told him where his ball went.
> 
> BUT - is there any remedy to suggest I could have raked the bunker looking for my ball?


The more I look at this the more I want to counter with "but" I can't because I can't defend my answer; so here is something to think about until I can find it. you hit a provisional after declaring the original out of bounds but you don't declare the provisional out of bounds or lost, until you get to the area. I think once you move to the ball after declaring a provisional you drop from the point of entry. If you don't declare the original lost but discover it is then you can go back to the tee and hit a provisional. I'll hash this out with the master of the rule book and I think there is a rule on your situation too. I'll check...see what you've done Rick!

I think this is the appropriate rule in your situation Dennis if not Rick will stick it to me: ii) In a Bunker: If the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground condition at a spot in a bunker, the player may substitute another ball without penalty and take relief as prescribed in Rule 25-1b(ii).


----------



## Surtees

wow my head hurts! So really in this situation you are better to handball the decision to the course offical because if you made a mistake and missed used the rule you could face loss of hole or disquafication.(spelling)


----------



## 373

I just said the hell with it and dropped a ball short of the trap and chipped/putted out, took a stroke and called it George.

I saw a guy once who hit a ball that stuck in a rotten part of a tree. It was about 15 feet up and easy enough to read Titleist, but not a number. You had to know this guy. We were just dieing to call it his ball because he would have bragged about it for months and let himself be the butt of all the jokes. Unfortunately, he found his ball a few yards away, but I always wondered how someone reacted if they actually knew that was their ball in the tree.


----------



## broken tee

DennisM said:


> I just said the hell with it and dropped a ball short of the trap and chipped/putted out, took a stroke and called it George.
> 
> I saw a guy once who hit a ball that stuck in a rotten part of a tree. It was about 15 feet up and easy enough to read Titleist, but not a number. You had to know this guy. We were just dieing to call it his ball because he would have bragged about it for months and let himself be the butt of all the jokes. Unfortunately, he found his ball a few yards away, but I always wondered how someone reacted if they actually knew that was their ball in the tree.


That works


----------



## Fourputt

DennisM said:


> That's interesting. I would have thought if you declared a provisional, it would be in play if the original ball was found in a hazard. BUT... not knowing which ball was which, I figured the presumption would be that the ball in the hazard would be the original. I thought declaration of a provisional meant a ball in play would be the provisional unless proven otherwise. Thus the ball in play, not in a hazard, would lie 3.


Because the provisional ball is no longer a valid option once it's been determined that one of the balls lies in the hazard. If the ball in the rough is the provisional ball, then the ball in the hazard must by default be the original ball. If the ball in the rough is actually the original, but it can't be identified as such, then the provisional ball would be the ball in play, which would mean that you were lying 3 in the water, dropping 4 and hitting 5. This seems unduly harsh since the other similar scenarios in Decision 27/11 all make the assumption that the ball in play is the provisional ball. If we follow that trend then the ball in the hazard must be assumed to be the original ball and the provisional ball is abandoned. 

I'm actually disagreeing with the decision's result in Situation 4. Going by the decision, you would be playing your 4th stroke with the ball that you found in the rough under the assumption that you are taking the stroke and distance penalty. If I'm making this ruling in a competition I would have no choice but to go that route. In my opinion Situation 4 is consistent with the other scenarios, but the fact that if you are assuming that the ball in the rough is the provisional ball, then you have to assume that the ball in the hazard is the original. Under Decision 27-2a/2.2, the provisional ball is abandoned if the original ball is ultimately found to be in the hazard.



> 27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball
> 
> Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?
> 
> A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)


In my opinion the above decision contradicts 27/11 - Situation 4. I've read elsewhere that the ruling bodies are having some discussions about Decision 27/11, and a change could be forthcoming. When I have no idea.  I may even have to write the USGA and ask them for a clarification of this.


----------



## Surtees

gee this has been a curly one hasnt it! I like that one that has me playing the least amount of strokes!


----------



## custom cluber

If a fella's not careful he could make the course's par on this shot alone. C/C


----------



## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> Because the provisional ball is no longer a valid option once it's been determined that one of the balls lies in the hazard. If the ball in the rough is the provisional ball, then the ball in the hazard must by default be the original ball. If the ball in the rough is actually the original, but it can't be identified as such, then the provisional ball would be the ball in play, which would mean that you were lying 3 in the water, dropping 4 and hitting 5. This seems unduly harsh since the other similar scenarios in Decision 27/11 all make the assumption that the ball in play is the provisional ball. If we follow that trend then the ball in the hazard must be assumed to be the original ball and the provisional ball is abandoned.
> 
> I'm actually disagreeing with the decision's result in Situation 4. Going by the decision, you would be playing your 4th stroke with the ball that you found in the rough under the assumption that you are taking the stroke and distance penalty. If I'm making this ruling in a competition I would have no choice but to go that route. In my opinion Situation 4 is consistent with the other scenarios, but the fact that if you are assuming that the ball in the rough is the provisional ball, then you have to assume that the ball in the hazard is the original. Under Decision 27-2a/2.2, the provisional ball is abandoned if the original ball is ultimately found to be in the hazard.
> 
> 
> 
> In my opinion the above decision contradicts 27/11 - Situation 4. I've read elsewhere that the ruling bodies are having some discussions about Decision 27/11, and a change could be forthcoming. When I have no idea.  I may even have to write the USGA and ask them for a clarification of this.


This is as bad as trying to understand onstitutional Law, You're my hero Rick:thumbsup:


----------



## Surtees

why cant rule be writen in plan english? I know because the common person would be able to understand them and the snobs that wrote them wouldnt be able to stick there noses up because the man on the street would understand what is writen.


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## custom cluber

LOL, I like that surtees! Bought time someone sticks it to the man! C/C


----------



## broken tee

Surtees said:


> why cant rule be writen in plan english? I know because the common person would be able to understand them and the snobs that wrote them wouldnt be able to stick there noses up because the man on the street would understand what is writen.


Luke for Parliment:headbang:


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## custom cluber

Here,here! C/c


----------



## Surtees

Look out all the snobs of the goverment now what to call my party?


----------



## Surtees

Back on topic for a second

Question: "Whilst playing the 4th hole in a match, I am 2 up, but realise I have 15 clubs in my bag. What is the ruling?"

Answer:?


----------



## stevel1017

assuming you hit at least one shot on the 4th, then you are 4 down (take the 2 extras out and give them to some one to take to the clubhouse)


----------



## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> Back on topic for a second
> 
> Question: "Whilst playing the 4th hole in a match, I am 2 up, but realise I have 15 clubs in my bag. What is the ruling?"
> 
> Answer:?


You have one extra club in your bag in breach of Rule 4-4.

At the finish of the hole being played (4th hole) you declare the extra club out of play, then adjust the state of the match by 2 holes. The rules state that for each hole where you had the extra club you lose that hole, up to a maximum of 2 holes. Thus, at the conclusion of the fourth hole you would subtract the 2 lost holes from your current standing in the match. (Decision 4-4a/1)

If you halved the 4th hole, the match would now be all square. (2up - 2 = AS)
If you lost the 4th hole, your opponent would now be 1 up. (1up - 2 = 1 down)
If you won the 4th hole, you would now be one up. (3up - 2 = 1up)

It's interesting to note that you can actually be down more holes than you have played under this rule. If the breach is discovered on the 2nd hole and you had lost both holes, you would now be 4 down after 2... not a good way to start a match. :cheeky4: :laugh:


----------



## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> You have one extra club in your bag in breach of Rule 4-4.
> 
> At the finish of the hole being played (4th hole) you declare the extra club out of play, then adjust the state of the match by 2 holes. The rules state that for each hole where you had the extra club you lose that hole, up to a maximum of 2 holes. Thus, at the conclusion of the fourth hole you would subtract the 2 lost holes from your current standing in the match. (Decision 4-4a/1)
> 
> If you halved the 4th hole, the match would now be all square. (2up - 2 = AS)
> If you lost the 4th hole, your opponent would now be 1 up. (1up - 2 = 1 down)
> If you won the 4th hole, you would now be one up. (3up - 2 = 1up)
> 
> It's interesting to note that you can actually be down more holes than you have played under this rule. If the breach is discovered on the 2nd hole and you had lost both holes, you would now be 4 down after 2... not a good way to start a match. :cheeky4: :laugh:


I swear Rick, you must have that book committed to memory. I have the place book marked on the computer and still don't know where to begin reading


----------



## 373

What would happen if you won a match by a large amount, let's say 5 and 4, just for the sake of example, but discovered the 15 club after the match? Are you penalized 2 holes, but you still win, or do you forfeit?


----------



## Surtees

mmm interesting


----------



## broken tee

After we answer Dennis's guestion answer this. A member of our foursome hit his second shot toward a lateral water hazard. we searched for the ball and found it resting on thick grass over the water. Now is he in the hazard and is there a penalty we didn't guestion his play from where the ball was resting. He hit it to the fairway. the hazard was white stakes. hope this gives a clear picture.


----------



## 373

I'll take a stab at Broken Tee's example... I'll look it up when I get back to work. (Why waste perfectly good lunch time?)

First, I thought white stakes usually indicate OB, not a lateral hazard, don't they? I would think the hazard should be marked in red.

In answer to the question - I think it depends upon where the hazard was marked in relation to the ball. Presuming his ball was on an overhang beyond the stakes, (in the hazard), he can hit play it as long as he doesn't ground his club.

You could even wade out into a lake to an island where your ball is.

Definition of the hazard can be a problem. In a tournament, hazards would probably be marked with paint lines or stakes. During day to day play, if your course is like mine, those markings might not exist, so the definition of a lateral water hazard would probably have to be a matter of the ball literally being in water. I doubt the rules get that specific.

A question... Until recent heavy rains, water hazards at a course near me were very low. In one particular case where the lake has a really shallow bank, there was about 30 extra feet of exposed bottom where there was once water covering it. There is nothing to mark the edge of the hazard, so if a ball was on the dirt that would have usually been covered with water, was it in a hazard or not?


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> After we answer Dennis's guestion answer this. A member of our foursome hit his second shot toward a lateral water hazard. we searched for the ball and found it resting on thick grass over the water. Now is he in the hazard and is there a penalty we didn't guestion his play from where the ball was resting. He hit it to the fairway. the hazard was white stakes. hope this gives a clear picture.


I never heard of white stakes marking a water hazard. How would you know if it is a lateral water hazard or a regular water hazard? White stakes are typically only used for out of bounds.

Since the margin of the hazard extends vertically upwards and downwards, if the ball is touching or inside of the margin it is in the hazard. It does not need to be touching the water or the ground within the hazard.

I still question that he was even in a hazard though. The rules require a hazard to be marked with red or yellow stakes, or possibly not marked at all, in which case the physical edge of the hazard would be the margin.


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> I never heard of white stakes marking a water hazard. How would you know if it is a lateral water hazard or a regular water hazard? White stakes are typically only used for out of bounds.
> 
> Since the margin of the hazard extends vertically upwards and downwards, if the ball is touching or inside of the margin it is in the hazard. It does not need to be touching the water or the ground within the hazard.
> 
> I still question that he was even in a hazard though. The rules require a hazard to be marked with red or yellow stakes, or possibly not marked at all, in which case the physical edge of the hazard would be the margin.


Played today and the hazard is not marked its ground under repair around the pond I thought they were white just plain stakes my error

He still takes a penalty... correct?


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Played today and the hazard is not marked its ground under repair around the pond I thought they were white just plain stakes my error
> 
> He still takes a penalty... correct?


If he can't play from where it lies in the hazard then yes.


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> If he can't play from where it lies in the hazard then yes.


Thanks Rick. I think I'm going to pull his chain on that situation. He's a stickler on fair play so I'll hit him up for two strokes on the steak dinner we're playing for he'll steam over the questionable shot until he gets home and looks it up. Then I'll get phone calls. This guy is a character


----------



## 373

Isn't he allowed to play from the hazard as long as he doesn't ground his club?


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## broken tee

DennisM said:


> Isn't he allowed to play from the hazard as long as he doesn't ground his club?


Dennis: yes, by the way, what happens if your ball lands close to one of them thar alligators? Do you bash em with the wedge and yell get out of here or abandon the ball? I'm not sure if I want the get close to one of them bad boys.


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## 373

I've only seen 2 gators on the course and neither came out of the water. Oddly, they were in a lake on a little executive par 3 course instead of anywhere I've seen a warning sign about them.

At Palmetto, a reasonably nice public course near here, there are so many warning signs, you'd think you would be tripping over the silly things, but I've never seen any there and the guy who scuba dives for balls said he's never seen any indication of more than fish living in the canals and lakes there.


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## broken tee

DennisM said:


> I've only seen 2 gators on the course and neither came out of the water. Oddly, they were in a lake on a little executive par 3 course instead of anywhere I've seen a warning sign about them.
> 
> At Palmetto, a reasonably nice public course near here, there are so many warning signs, you'd think you would be tripping over the silly things, but I've never seen any there and the guy who scuba dives for balls said he's never seen any indication of more than fish living in the canals and lakes there.



I Think if you or I were to encounter one of them critters on the course, I know this is a stretch, but Rule 25-1
25-1. Abnormal Ground Conditions
a. Interference
Interference by an abnormal ground condition occurs when a ball lies in or touches the condition or when the condition interferes with the player's stance or the area of his intended swing. If the player's ball lies on the putting green, interference also occurs if an abnormal ground (Abnormal Ground Conditions
An "abnormal ground condition" is any casual water, ground under repair or hole, cast or runway on the course made by a burrowing animal, *a reptile *or a bird).
Since an alligator is a reptile that ball is lying on its turf. how about some feedback here guys how would you play it.


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## 373

I don't think the rule applies when you are running the other way.


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## stevel1017

1-4/10 Dangerous Situation; Rattlesnake or Bees Interfere with Play
Q. A player's ball comes to rest in a situation dangerous to the player, e.g., near a live rattlesnake or a bees' nest. Does the player have any options in addition to playing the ball as it lies or, if applicable, proceeding under Rule 26 or 28? 
A. Yes. It is unreasonable to expect the player to play from such a dangerous situation and unfair to require the player to incur a penalty under Rule 26 (Water Hazards) or Rule 28 (Ball Unplayable). 
In equity (Rule 1-4), as an additional option the player may, without 
penalty, drop a ball on the nearest spot not nearer the hole that is not dangerous. 
If the ball lay in a hazard, it should be dropped, if possible, in the same hazard and, if not, in a similar nearby hazard, but in either case not nearer the hole. If it is not possible for the player to drop the ball in a hazard, he may drop it, under penalty of one stroke, outside the hazard, keeping the point where the original ball lay between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped. 
If it is clearly unreasonable for the player to make a stroke because of interference by anything other than the dangerous situation or if the situation would be dangerous only through the use of an unnecessarily abnormal stance, swing, or direction of play, he may not take relief as prescribed above, but he is not precluded from proceeding under Rule 26 or 28 if applicable. (Revised)
Danger from Fire Ants — See 33-8/22.
1-4/11 Meaning of "Dangerous Situation"
Q. According to Decision 1-4/10, a ball lying near a live rattlesnake or bees' nest is a "dangerous situation" and relief should be granted in equity.
If a player's ball comes to rest in or near an area of plants such as poison ivy, cacti or stinging nettles, should the provisions of Decision 1-4/10 apply?
A. No. The player must either play the ball as it lies or, if applicable, proceed under Rule 26 (Water Hazards) or Rule 28 (Ball Unplayable).
Decision 1-4/10 contemplates a situation which is unrelated to conditions normally encountered on the course. Unpleasant lies are a common occurrence which players must accept.


source
http://www.usga.org/bookdecision.aspx?id=14255


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## broken tee

stevel1017 said:


> 1-4/10 Dangerous Situation; Rattlesnake or Bees Interfere with Play
> Q. A player's ball comes to rest in a situation dangerous to the player, e.g., near a live rattlesnake or a bees' nest. Does the player have any options in addition to playing the ball as it lies or, if applicable, proceeding under Rule 26 or 28?
> A. Yes. It is unreasonable to expect the player to play from such a dangerous situation and unfair to require the player to incur a penalty under Rule 26 (Water Hazards) or Rule 28 (Ball Unplayable).
> In equity (Rule 1-4), as an additional option the player may, without
> penalty, drop a ball on the nearest spot not nearer the hole that is not dangerous.
> If the ball lay in a hazard, it should be dropped, if possible, in the same hazard and, if not, in a similar nearby hazard, but in either case not nearer the hole. If it is not possible for the player to drop the ball in a hazard, he may drop it, under penalty of one stroke, outside the hazard, keeping the point where the original ball lay between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped.
> If it is clearly unreasonable for the player to make a stroke because of interference by anything other than the dangerous situation or if the situation would be dangerous only through the use of an unnecessarily abnormal stance, swing, or direction of play, he may not take relief as prescribed above, but he is not precluded from proceeding under Rule 26 or 28 if applicable. (Revised)
> Danger from Fire Ants — See 33-8/22.
> 1-4/11 Meaning of "Dangerous Situation"
> Q. According to Decision 1-4/10, a ball lying near a live rattlesnake or bees' nest is a "dangerous situation" and relief should be granted in equity.
> If a player's ball comes to rest in or near an area of plants such as poison ivy, cacti or stinging nettles, should the provisions of Decision 1-4/10 apply?
> A. No. The player must either play the ball as it lies or, if applicable, proceed under Rule 26 (Water Hazards) or Rule 28 (Ball Unplayable).
> Decision 1-4/10 contemplates a situation which is unrelated to conditions normally encountered on the course. Unpleasant lies are a common occurrence which players must accept.
> 
> 
> source
> USGA: Rules and Decisions


I would have never located that rule and I was on the same website Steve...thank you:thumbsup:


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## Surtees

nice find steve! great work keep it up what if the player himself is a danger to himself?


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## broken tee

Surtees said:


> nice find steve! great work keep it up what if the player himself is a danger to himself?


They're sent to Geelong. Australia to work as test dummies for Ford:headbang:


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## broken tee

*Is it 24-2b/7*

had this happen to me today. I hit a booming drive, 320 yards, pin high, easy chip, and a putt. the only catch to this is part of the roll was on the cart path. the ball rested against the curb of the path. I moved the ball away from the pin on to the grass to chip. Is this covered under rule 24-2b/7 and was I correct in my action for relief?:dunno:


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> had this happen to me today. I hit a booming drive, 320 yards, pin high, easy chip, and a putt. the only catch to this is part of the roll was on the cart path. the ball rested against the curb of the path. I moved the ball away from the pin on to the grass to chip. Is this covered under rule 24-2b/7 and was I correct in my action for relief?:dunno:


You might be right, you might be wrong. I can't tell from you description exactly what you did. You didn't say whether you dropped within one clublength of the nearest point of relief... in fact, you didn't even say whether you dropped the ball. You also didn't say whether you took complete relief for stance, lie and area of intended swing, another necessity when taking relief from an immovable obstruction. You can't even be touching the path when you hit the ball.

If you played from a wrong place it's a 2 stroke penalty. If you didn't take compete relief from the obstruction it's a 2 stroke penalty. If you dropped incorrectly it's a one stroke penalty unless corrected.

So you may have done it correctly by accident, but I can't really tell. :dunno:


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> You might be right, you might be wrong. I can't tell from you description exactly what you did. You didn't say whether you dropped within one clublength of the nearest point of relief... in fact, you didn't even say whether you dropped the ball. You also didn't say whether you took complete relief for stance, lie and area of intended swing, another necessity when taking relief from an immovable obstruction. You can't even be touching the path when you hit the ball.
> 
> If you played from a wrong place it's a 2 stroke penalty. If you didn't take compete relief from the obstruction it's a 2 stroke penalty. If you dropped incorrectly it's a one stroke penalty unless corrected.
> 
> So you may have done it correctly by accident, but I can't really tell. :dunno:



Rick: Based on the questions you ask my intent was correct but I did everything wrong, I just tossed the ball on to the grass away from the obstruction, didn't measure,,yet I was not inhibited in stance and lie, but what do you mean wrong place? other than the roll on the cart path it was still a great drive for me we estimated 270 had just a little trouble with opening the face of the driver yesterday.


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Rick: Based on the questions you ask my intent was correct but I did everything wrong, I just tossed the ball on to the grass away from the obstruction, didn't measure,,yet I was not inhibited in stance and lie, but what do you mean wrong place?


If the place you played from was not within one clublength of the nearest point of relief, then you played from a wrong place. The rules do not require you to follow the specified procedure for determining this spot, but they DO require you to play from the correct place as established by this procedure. Sometimes it is obvious without taking your stance to determine the nearest point of relief and then measuring, but other times the correct place is not as apparent. It varies with the situation, and it is especially pertinent when a cart path is involved. I've seen players take relief on the wrong side of a cart path too many times to count. The nearest point of relief is not always in a good place, but that doesn't mean that you can select someplace else. If the only area of relief is in a bush or unplayable rough, then maybe you would have to play the ball as it lies. I've played many shots from cart paths for this very reason.

The important thing to remember is that your ball must end up within one clublength of the nearest point of complete relief from the obstruction, but not nearer to the hole.

Look at decision 24-2b/3.7 for a diagram showing the process.


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> If the place you played from was not within one clublength of the nearest point of relief, then you played from a wrong place. The rules do not require you to follow the specified procedure for determining this spot, but they DO require you to play from the correct place as established by this procedure. Sometimes it is obvious without taking your stance to determine the nearest point of relief and then measuring, but other times the correct place is not as apparent. It varies with the situation, and it is especially pertinent when a cart path is involved. I've seen players take relief on the wrong side of a cart path too many times to count. The nearest point of relief is not always in a good place, but that doesn't mean that you can select someplace else. If the only area of relief is in a bush or unplayable rough, then maybe you would have to play the ball as it lies. I've played many shots from cart paths for this very reason.
> 
> The important thing to remember is that your ball must end up within one clublength of the nearest point of complete relief from the obstruction, but not nearer to the hole.
> 
> Look at decision 24-2b/3.7 for a diagram showing the process.


Thanks Rick I always enjoy your input:thumbsup:


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## custom cluber

Is there a penelty for hitting another player? And also is there a link to the rules you guys post here? Thanks. C/C


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## broken tee

custom cluber said:


> Is there a penelty for hitting another player? And also is there a link to the rules you guys post here? Thanks. C/C


I don't know if there is a rule in tournament play,but I've been hit before and I imposed a shot back at em. twice they hit into us. goto USGA Rules.


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## stevel1017

custom cluber said:


> Is there a penelty for hitting another player? And also is there a link to the rules you guys post here? Thanks. C/C


hit an opponent, or random golfer? no penalty. There is one if you hit your partner or caddie
I just google when I have to to find the rules


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## Fourputt

custom cluber said:


> Is there a penelty for hitting another player? And also is there a link to the rules you guys post here? Thanks. C/C


The only penalty might be that he beats you senseless if you didn't yell "FORE!!!" when you saw the ball heading toward him.  This is something that you want to try to avoid, but be certain that if you see your ball headed toward another player, yell "FORE" at the top of your lungs. There is an inherent accepted risk when a person steps onto a golf course, but by giving a timely warning, that risk is minimized.

There is a penalty if you hit a player who is your partner or if you hit your caddie or your partner's caddie.

The link to the USGA's Rules website is: Rules of Golf


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## custom cluber

Thanks for the link rick. I guess the shot I had in mind was a blind spot like trees in the way or a down hill shot.C/C


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## broken tee

A player gets angry and throws the club amy penalty? USGA refers to 4-3/b referencing damged club or can the PGA lets say impose a fine?


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## custom cluber

What about the hazard rule, does it apply to balls under trees? and am I correct in understanding that even if a ball lands in a hazard but is still playable you get penalized for it? Thanks! C/C


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## stevel1017

custom cluber said:


> What about the hazard rule, does it apply to balls under trees? and am I correct in understanding that even if a ball lands in a hazard but is still playable you get penalized for it? Thanks! C/C


If the area under the tree is marked as a hazard, then you are in a hazard, if not, then you are not, and can play normally.
If you are in a hazard, and can play the ball, you may do so, under no penalty, as long as you follow procedure (eg, do not ground your club)


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> A player gets angry and throws the club amy penalty? USGA refers to 4-3/b referencing damged club or can the PGA lets say impose a fine?


No idea what the PGA can or cannot do. Just throwing a club is not a rules infraction. It is however an insult to common courtesy, and a potential etiquette violation. If the club is broken in anger, it cannot be replaced during the round.



custom cluber said:


> What about the hazard rule, does it apply to balls under trees? and am I correct in understanding that even if a ball lands in a hazard but is still playable you get penalized for it? Thanks! C/C


A ball under a tree is not in a hazard unless the tree is within or overhangs the margin of a water hazard. A tree may be an obstacle to making a swing, but it is not a water hazard, nor is it an obstruction. In playing a stroke from a situation where you have a restricted swing, use caution in making any practice swings because if you improve the area of your intended swing by breaking or dislodging a branch or even a leaf, it is a penalty under Rule 13-2. You also cannot bend or push anything out of the way except in the act of fairly taking your stance. That means that you can't make any unusual move to take your stance which would unfairly improve your swing.

If the ball is playable there is no penalty for playing it as it lies. There is never a penalty for playing the ball as it lies, because that is one of the primary principles of the game. It would be a contradiction of everything the game stands for to penalize a player when he can play the ball as it lies. 

You cannot ground your club in the hazard, nor can you move any loose impediments if both your ball and the loose impediment lie in or touch the hazard.


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## broken tee

*throwing a club*

Talked with my Dad on this question and he didn't know about PGA either, but he did say that when he was club president that during toutnament play that the local rule forbids that display. He was surprised That I didn't remember when I got hit(as a caddie) by an angry golfer throwing his club, I remeber the incident but at twelve years old I wasn't privi to the clubs decisions. He went on to say that the display of questionable conduct was locally controlled through out the state of Washington. I talk daily with my parents they're in their 80s and Golf is still their passion.

Glad you responded Rick, I forgot about this post.


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## custom cluber

Thanks for the clarafication guys, C/C


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## 373

I ran into an interesting rule interpretation while reading a magazine in the doctor's office today. I think it was the March issue of Golf Magazine.

While looking at his line, a player in a PGA event wanted to remove splatters of the white paint used to paint the inside of the cup for television. A rules official allowed him to remove all that were loose, (movable obstructions), but one drop was stuck to a blade of grass and couldn't be removed because it wasn't considered an immovable obstruction. It didn't say whether it interfered with the putt or whether the putt was made anyway.


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## broken tee

DennisM said:


> I ran into an interesting rule interpretation while reading a magazine in the doctor's office today. I think it was the March issue of Golf Magazine.
> 
> While looking at his line, a player in a PGA event wanted to remove splatters of the white paint used to paint the inside of the cup for television. A rules official allowed him to remove all that were loose, (movable obstructions), but one drop was stuck to a blade of grass and couldn't be removed because it wasn't considered an immovable obstruction. It didn't say whether it interfered with the putt or whether the putt was made anyway.


From past discussions with Rick only loose inpediments


----------



## Surtees

Yes I agree if the paint was suck on the grass it's is an inmoveable object.


----------



## Surtees

Question: "I took a drop and my ball came to rest for a few seconds, but then rolled closer towards the hole, do I need to re-drop?"


----------



## broken tee

Surtees said:


> Question: "I took a drop and my ball came to rest for a few seconds, but then rolled closer towards the hole, do I need to re-drop?"


With out looking at the rule book, I say yes, the reason is that it became an improper drop by rolling closer to the hole...so drop again. I'm taking a big guess here.


Now here is my question: the fouresome I was playing with today questioned how far behind the tee marker you can tee the ball. with all the discussion we've had on teeing the ball I do not remember reading anything in the rules stating a distance just that you can't go forward of the makers. So as long as you stay on the teeing ground behind the markers there is no violation of the rules. Am I correct?


----------



## Surtees

I THINK that as long as your behind or inline with the tee makers and you stay on the tee box you can chose where to tee your ball up but why would you tee up at the back of the tee up box your just adding distance to the hole. The only reason I could think of for this was if there was a water hazard and you want to be sure that your ball would stop before it. So you give yourself a metre or two more for safety.


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## stevel1017

you are allowed 2 club lengths behind the marker

From the Rules of Golf, Section II, Definitions. 

The "teeing ground" is the starting place for the hole to be played. It is a rectangular area two club-lengths in depth, the front and the sides of which are defined by the outside limits of two tee-markers. A ball is outside the teeing ground when all of it lies outside the teeing ground.


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## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> Question: "I took a drop and my ball came to rest for a few seconds, but then rolled closer towards the hole, do I need to re-drop?"


It is a question of fact whether or not the ball stopped moving. I have seen occasions where the ball seemed to stop, but was actually still moving almost imperceptibly. In the situation you describe, it is almost always assumed that the ball was in that creep mode unless there was some other factor like wind involved. 

As far as redropping is concerned, more information is needed. Why were you dropping? The redropping rules are different depending on the reason for the drop. You say that the ball rolled closer to the hole.... closer than what???


----------



## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> It is a question of fact whether or not the ball stopped moving. I have seen occasions where the ball seemed to stop, but was actually still moving almost imperceptibly. In the situation you describe, it is almost always assumed that the ball was in that creep mode unless there was some other factor like wind involved.
> 
> As far as redropping is concerned, more information is needed. Why were you dropping? The redropping rules are different depending on the reason for the drop. You say that the ball rolled closer to the hole.... closer than what???


Okay this one has my attention: you go into the water by the green then go to the drop area and based on Luke's senario what do you think should happen.


----------



## stevel1017

the ball must land in the drop area, but is not required to stay in it


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Okay this one has my attention: you go into the water by the green then go to the drop area and based on Luke's senario what do you think should happen.


Which scenario is that? I need more information. What option is he using to drop for the hazard. Is he dropping in a specified drop area... or dropping as in Rule 26-1 option 2 or Rule 26-1 option 3?


----------



## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> Which scenario is that? I need more information. What option is he using to drop for the hazard. Is he dropping in a specified drop area... or dropping as in Rule 26-1 option 2 or Rule 26-1 option 3?


Dang Rick I'm just too ignorant of the rules and not creative enough to give good detail. so lets say it was the second shot in the water that protects the green and drops nearest the point of entry and the ball rolls toward the green....I've got beads of sweat on my brow trying to put clarity in this question. just bear with me


----------



## Surtees

Heres the answer I got from the Australian site I get some of these off 
Answer:

See Rule 20-2 Note 1. Which is “If a ball when dropped or re-dropped comes to rest and subsequently moves, the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule applies”.

So I take if there a other rules applied here depending on the reason for the drop.


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## Fourputt

Ok... first we have to understand the terminology. When you are in a situation which requires dropping, there is always a reference point for that drop. The reference point is different depending on what rule you are taking relief under, but the ball cannot ever come to rest closer to the hole than that reference point. 

First the list of reference points:

1) Lateral water hazard: The the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard.
2) Unplayable lie: The point where the ball lies in it's unplayable position.
3) Obstruction or abnormal ground condition (relief without penalty): The nearest point of complete relief from the condition where relief is being taken.

In each case, the ball when dropped may roll 2 no more than clublengths from the spot where it first hit the ground, and the point where it comes to rest may not be closer to the hole than the pertinent *reference point*. *It CAN be closer to the hole than where the ball first hit the ground when dropped, but no closer than the reference point.* If it does roll into a position which is closer to the hole than the reference point, or more than 2 clublengths from where it first hit the ground, then it must be redropped. If it again rolls to a point not allowed under the rules, then the ball must be placed on the spot where it hit the ground on the 2nd drop.

I could take you out on the course and show these on a case by case basis and it would be immediately clear. Writing it all down like this is much more difficult. Hopefully this helps.


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## broken tee

That makes much more sense then it rolled a 1/2" so you must re-drop.
Your a good man Rick thanks


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## broken tee

*Stepping in another players line*

Walking across someones line on the green, is this a courtesy or rule?
I'm going to check it out myself, but I do not recall this as a rule.:dunno:

Does 16-1E covers this


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Walking across someones line on the green, is this a courtesy or rule?
> I'm going to check it out myself, but I do not recall this as a rule.:dunno:
> 
> Does 16-1E covers this


It's an etiquette issue unless it's done to deliberately affect the other players putt. If done deliberately then Decision 1-2/1 applies:



> *1-2/1 Line of Putt Altered Purposely by Opponent or Fellow-Competitor by Stepping on It*
> 
> Q. An opponent or a fellow-competitor purposely steps on the player's line of putt with the intention either of improving the line (e.g., by pressing down a raised tuft of grass) or of damaging it (e.g., by making spike marks). What is the ruling?
> 
> A. In either case, the opponent or the fellow-competitor was in breach of Rule 1-2. The penalty is loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play, unless the Committee decides to impose a penalty of disqualification — see the penalty statement under Rule 1-2.
> 
> In stroke play if the line of putt has been damaged, the player, in equity (Rule 1-4), may restore the line of putt to its previous condition. A player is entitled to the lie and line of putt he had when his ball came to rest. The line of putt may be restored by anyone. (Revised)


Also repeated breaches of etiquette can be considered as just cause for disqualification by the committee.


----------



## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> It's an etiquette issue unless it's done to deliberately affect the other players putt. If done deliberately then Decision 1-2/1 applies:
> 
> 
> 
> Also repeated breaches of etiquette can be considered as just cause for disqualification by the committee.


okay after reviewing 16-1e The player must not make a stroke on the putting green from a stance astride, or with either foot touching, the line of putt or an extension of that line behind the ball.

this refers to a player putting in a croquet fashion. Correct
How does 1-2 or 1-4 apply in this situation as it reads
1-2. Exerting Influence on Ball
A player or caddie must not take any action to influence the position or the movement of a ball except in accordance with the Rules.

1-4. Points Not Covered by Rules
If any point in dispute is not covered by the Rules, the decision should be made in accordance with equity.

or are these rules like case law where a precedent by a committee made a decision


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> okay after reviewing 16-1e The player must not make a stroke on the putting green from a stance astride, or with either foot touching, the line of putt or an extension of that line behind the ball.
> 
> this refers to a player putting in a croquet fashion. Correct
> How does 1-2 or 1-4 apply in this situation as it reads
> 1-2. Exerting Influence on Ball
> A player or caddie must not take any action to influence the position or the movement of a ball except in accordance with the Rules.
> 
> 1-4. Points Not Covered by Rules
> If any point in dispute is not covered by the Rules, the decision should be made in accordance with equity.
> 
> or are these rules like case law where a precedent by a committee made a decision


By doing something like stepping in someone's line of putt you could be exerting influence on the movement of the ball. If it's done intentionally it is a breach of Rule 1-2. That is one of the prime no-no's in golf. The only way that one is allowed to exert influence on the ball is by making a stroke at it. Anything else you do to intentionally influence the movement of anyone's ball is a breach. That includes creating an indentation or raising a spike mark on someone's line of putt that might make the ball roll in some way other than what the player making the stroke intended.


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## broken tee

I have to laugh here Rick I can understand the rules as you explain it, but to read the rules for the first time and someone says its 1-2 and 1-4 I'd say you're full of crap. :laugh:


----------



## Surtees

Question: "We search for my ball for 5 minutes but do not find it, but continue to search and find it 1 minute later. I then played that ball. What is the ruling?"

Answer:


----------



## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> Question: "We search for my ball for 5 minutes but do not find it, but continue to search and find it 1 minute later. I then played that ball. What is the ruling?"
> 
> Answer:


When the 5 minutes was up, your ball was lost. You must return to the previous spot and play a ball from there and add a penalty stroke to your score. 

By playing the original ball after it was out of play, he played a wrong ball. He incurred a 2 stroke penalty (stroke play) or loss of hole (match play) and must correct his mistake, by going back and playing by the correct procedure under Rule 27-1. If he fails to correct his mistake before playing from the next tee he is disqualified from the competition.


----------



## Surtees

The ball was lost and therefore out of play when the five-minute search period expired (see Definitions of “Ball in Play” and Lost Ball”).

When you made a stroke with that ball, it was a wrong ball (see Definition of “Wrong Ball”).

In match play you lose the hole, or in stroke play, you incur a penalty of two-strokes and must correct the mistake (ie proceed under Rule 27-1).

In stroke play, if you do not correct the mistake before playing from the next tee, or in the case of the last hole of the round, fail to declare your intention to correct your mistake prior to leaving the putting green, you are disqualified (see Rule 15-3b).


----------



## Fourputt

I'll leave you with a question while I'm gone.

Brad's ball is unplayable in a bush. He declares it unplayable and decides to drop a different ball within two Club-lengths of where it lay, not nearer the hole.
What if any penalty does he incur?

a) 1 stroke

b) 2 strokes

c) 3 strokes

d) No penalty.


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## Surtees

I'll go b) a drop and distance.
Really he should of played a secondary ball shouldn't of he?


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## stevel1017

1 stroke for the unplayable, none for the different ball


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## broken tee

1 stroke under rule 28


----------



## broken tee

I haven't researched this, but a rake stopped a ball from rolling into the trap on a down hill slope. When the rake was moved the ball did not roll into the trap. What if it did roll when the rake was moved?


----------



## stevel1017

Yes. A bunker rake is a movable obstruction (see Definition of "Obstuctions") which the player may remove in accordance with Rule 24-1. 

If the ball is touching the sand in the bunker (or another part of the course) then the rake may be removed in accordance with Rule 24-1a. 

If the ball is resting solely on the rake (i.e. not also touching a part of the course) then Rule 24-1b permits the player to lift the ball, remove the rake, and drop the ball as nearly as possible to the spot directly beneath where the ball lay on the rake (but not nearer the hole). 

You may also wish to refer to Decisions 13/5, 20-3d/2, and Misc./2.


----------



## broken tee

stevel1017 said:


> Yes. A bunker rake is a movable obstruction (see Definition of "Obstuctions") which the player may remove in accordance with Rule 24-1.
> 
> If the ball is touching the sand in the bunker (or another part of the course) then the rake may be removed in accordance with Rule 24-1a.
> 
> If the ball is resting solely on the rake (i.e. not also touching a part of the course) then Rule 24-1b permits the player to lift the ball, remove the rake, and drop the ball as nearly as possible to the spot directly beneath where the ball lay on the rake (but not nearer the hole).
> 
> You may also wish to refer to Decisions 13/5, 20-3d/2, and Misc./2.


Thank you Steve. So I take it that had the ball rolled into the trap after the rake was removed play it as it lies


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Thank you Steve. So I take it that had the ball rolled into the trap after the rake was removed play it as it lies


Only if the ball was at rest after the rake was removed and before it started rolling. If the ball rolls as a result of moving the rake, then it must be replaced (Rule 24-1a). If the ball will not remain at rest on the exact spot, then it must be placed on the nearest spot not nearer the the hole and not in a hazard where it will remain at rest (Rule 20-3d).


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## broken tee

Rick: We had no ideas how to play the ball if it had rolled into the sand when the rake was removed. Glad your back safe and sound from your vacation. we missed your genius


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## clover

*great idea*

we always bring rule books to golf course,but i bet none of us can completely know the rules,this is a good idea.love it!


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## broken tee

*I can't find this so far I'm still looking*

I got a call from my golf buddy in sunny St. gorge, utah with a balmy 45f and overcast expecting rain:dunno: playing in a local tourney... I'm in snow.

Mike tells me a resident along the fairway was repotting trees/shrubs on the inbound side, she didn't want her patio dirty, but his team mate puts his ball in the pot.Mike said they got to laughing about the ball including the official, too many snorts under the belt. what got me was the official had mike's cohort lift the ball out of the pot had the lady remove the pots and plants from the course and placed the ball where the pot was. To me its right but I have my doubts. I'm still trying to determine how I would rule this

I'm thinking in rule 20


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> I got a call from my golf buddy in sunny St. gorge, utah with a balmy 45f and overcast expecting rain:dunno: playing in a local tourney... I'm in snow.
> 
> Mike tells me a resident along the fairway was repotting trees/shrubs on the inbound side, she didn't want her patio dirty, but his team mate puts his ball in the pot.Mike said they got to laughing about the ball including the official, too many snorts under the belt. what got me was the official had mike's cohort lift the ball out of the pot had the lady remove the pots and plants from the course and placed the ball where the pot was. To me its right but I have my doubts. I'm still trying to determine how I would rule this
> 
> I'm thinking in rule 20


Think in Rule 24 then.  

The official made one mistake in his ruling, can you find it?


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> Think in Rule 24 then.
> 
> The official made one mistake in his ruling, can you find it?


You're thinking 24-1b correct. should I be wrong then I have zero logic or sever brain impairment to the rules of golf so why wouldn't 20-3 apply I'm wondering if that is what the official was thinking?


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## 373

Fourputt said:


> The official made one mistake in his ruling, can you find it?


Shouldn't it be a free drop instead of a placement?


----------



## Fourputt

DennisM said:


> Shouldn't it be a free drop instead of a placement?


Yes, the ball should have been dropped rather than placed. In this situation, the ball is only placed if it lies in or on a movable _obstruction_ on the _putting green_. In this case the ball lay _through the green_, so it should have been lifted, the obstruction removed, and the ball dropped directly where the pot was. No clublength relief in this case.


----------



## 373

Fourputt said:


> it should have been lifted, the obstruction removed, and the ball dropped directly where the pot was. No clublength relief in this case.


Let's take this a step further. Since we are talking about the neighbor's property presumably being OB, if the drop rolls into the OB, the player has to drop again. I'm sure we all realize he or she could place the ball after a couple drops rolling OB.

Now, let's presume there's a fence separating the course from the neighbor's yard. What happens if a ball through the green to be dropped so close to the fence that it results in an unplayable lie?


----------



## Fourputt

DennisM said:


> Let's take this a step further. Since we are talking about the neighbor's property presumably being OB, if the drop rolls into the OB, the player has to drop again. I'm sure we all realize he or she could place the ball after a couple drops rolling OB.
> 
> Now, let's presume there's a fence separating the course from the neighbor's yard. What happens if a ball through the green to be dropped so close to the fence that it results in an unplayable lie?


Then that's how it is. That can happen when establishing a drop area from any condition allowing relief. I have more than once played a shot from a road or cart path because the "relief" would result in a far worse lie. In this case there is no choice but to take the drop, then examine the situation after the ball comes to rest. If that results in an unplayable lie, then you work from the procedures laid out in Rule 28. 

The odds are that if the obstruction hadn't been there, the lie would have been unplayable in the first place... the ball could possibly even have ended up out of bounds.


----------



## 373

I don't have time to look up the decision, but isn't there something that says, in so many words, that if you are entitled to a free drop, you can't be made to accept a drop into a situation that then causes you a penalty? In other words, if you get free relief from the potted plant, you can't be made to drop or place in a position that is unplayable or OB... I would swear I heard a decision about that somewhere a few years ago... happened on the PGA Tour...


----------



## Fourputt

DennisM said:


> I don't have time to look up the decision, but isn't there something that says, in so many words, that if you are entitled to a free drop, you can't be made to accept a drop into a situation that then causes you a penalty? In other words, if you get free relief from the potted plant, you can't be made to drop or place in a position that is unplayable or OB... I would swear I heard a decision about that somewhere a few years ago... happened on the PGA Tour...


You always have the option to play the ball as it lies. But if it lies inside of a flower pot, you probably aren't going to have much luck with it. There is no such decision as you describe. I have played shots from obstructions in the past (roads and cart paths in particular) when the nearest point of relief and the subsequent one clublength drop area would put me in an unplayable position. 

The NPR and drop area cannot be in a hazard. Maybe that is what you are thinking of?


----------



## broken tee

DennisM said:


> ... I would swear I heard a decision about that somewhere a few years ago... happened on the PGA Tour...


That situation is vaguely familar, was it Watson? hit a shot to the green pushed it right an bounced into an potted schrub on a pedestal.


----------



## 373

I still can't remember. Essentially, one of the pros hit a shot into something like a vacant lawn chair or into someone's lap. Obviously he deserved a free drop from that. 

He dropped a couple times, both times watching the ball roll less than a club length, no closer to the hole, under a bush, from where it would have been unplayable. He was then instructed to place the ball.

What it amounted to was, a free drop shouldn't be allowed to roll into a position that incurs a penalty... in so many words.

Maybe I'll email The Rules Guy at Golf Magazine or Golf Digest, whichever it is.


----------



## Fourputt

DennisM said:


> I still can't remember. Essentially, one of the pros hit a shot into something like a vacant lawn chair or into someone's lap. Obviously he deserved a free drop from that.
> 
> He dropped a couple times, both times watching the ball roll less than a club length, no closer to the hole, under a bush, from where it would have been unplayable. He was then instructed to place the ball.
> 
> What it amounted to was, a free drop shouldn't be allowed to roll into a position that incurs a penalty... in so many words.
> 
> Maybe I'll email The Rules Guy at Golf Magazine or Golf Digest, whichever it is.


A golf magazine is the last place to get an accurate answer.  I guarantee you that I know the rules better than they do. If you want an accurate answer, sent it in the "ask a question" section in the USGA Rules website. 

I looked through the entire decisions sections for Rule 24 and and Rule 20. I found nothing that even mentioned such special relief. If what you say did happen, then either the ball actually did roll closer to the hole, or the ball rolled out of bounds, or the rules official was mistaken. I find nothing else to justify any redrop or placement.


----------



## Surtees

When it goes under a bush can't you just use a foot wedge:headbang::rofl:


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## broken tee

Surtees said:


> When it goes under a bush can't you just use a foot wedge:headbang::rofl:


I use a stick less likely getting snake bit by the Diamond back


----------



## Surtees

Sorry I haven't done one of these in a while the site I used for these had changed it's format and I only just found them again.

Question: Can I use an “x-out”, “refurbished” or “practice” ball to play a round of golf?


----------



## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> Sorry I haven't done one of these in a while the site I used for these had changed it's format and I only just found them again.
> 
> Question: Can I use an “x-out”, “refurbished” or “practice” ball to play a round of golf?


Yes and no. How's that for a definite answer? :laugh: Unless there is strong evidence that the ball does not conform to its brethren on the USGA's conforming ball list, the ball is allowed for general use. This would apply to most brand name X-out and Practice balls bought as "bargains". 

However, if you are playing in a competition where the committee has specified that the ball used MUST be on the conforming ball list (the list includes any allowed markings - X-outs and practice balls are never published on the list), then such balls are not allowed.


----------



## Fourputt

Here's a winter brainteaser for you. 

During a stroke play competition, Bob's approach shot comes to rest very close to Luke's ball on the putting green and near Luke's line. Since Luke is away, and Bob has gone to the Port-a-John for a pit stop, Luke just marks and sets Bob's ball a couple of feet to the side, then putts his ball. When Bob comes back out, he sees his ball lying on the green, and Luke, daydreaming, says nothing. Bob goes ahead and miraculously holes out the putt for an apparent birdie. Suddenly Luke wakes up and tells Bob that he had marked his ball and shows Bob the coin. 

Bob, fuming, says that means that I played from a wrong place, so I incur 2 penalty strokes for breach of Rule 20-7c, but the ball is still holed. Now we all know that Bob is often confused about the rules, so is he correct?


----------



## Surtees

Because I moved the ball and didn't replace I say I'd get the penalty and bob would reset his ball and hole out again, but then it's not just Bob that gets confused by the rules.


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## broken tee

Since Bob was in the little hole I would say that 20-1 & 20-7(c) note 1 would still allow him to make the birdie again. The player is still responcible for any breach of the rules in this case. the ball was marked and before the better golfer left the green the daydreaming lacky informed fabulous Bob of the error. Bob being the better man and golfer may have raised his voice but quickly regained his composure and walking with confidence retrieved his ball from the hole and putted from the correctly marked spot and sank it.:headbang: Therefore he would be able to have the bloody day dreamer buy him the favorite beverage of Bob's choice. Everybody should be like Bob...What a guy!


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Since Bob was in the little hole I would say that 20-1 & 20-7(c) note 1 would still allow him to make the birdie again. The player is still responcible for any breach of the rules in this case. the ball was marked and before the better golfer left the green the daydreaming lacky informed fabulous Bob of the error. Bob being the better man and golfer may have raised his voice but quickly regained his composure and walking with confidence retrieved his ball from the hole and putted from the correctly marked spot and sank it.:headbang: Therefore he would be able to have the bloody day dreamer buy him the favorite beverage of Bob's choice. Everybody should be like Bob...What a guy!


Very amusing, but not quite correct. :laugh:


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## Surtees

lol I think the daydreaming lacky is Bob he needs to wake and know that he would of 3 putted from his orginal postion.


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## broken tee

My understanding is tha anyplayer or partner can mark and lift the ball under 20-1, had Bob putted and ignored the error and left the green a two stroke penalty would occur. 20-7(c) note 1 or 2 should of allowed the replay.
when I get home this afternoon lets look at this.


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> My understanding is tha anyplayer or partner can mark and lift the ball under 20-1, had Bob putted and ignored the error and left the green a two stroke penalty would occur. 20-7(c) note 1 or 2 should of allowed the replay.
> when I get home this afternoon lets look at this.


Just a hint, although the rule say that only the play or a member of his side can lift his ball, that really only applies to match play. I have to say that I doubt that anyone will get this one, as a discussion about it on another forum stumped most of us. 

What you have to know here is when a ball is in play and when it's out of play, and how the same apparent mistake is treated for those 2 very different conditions. 

I'll give it another day before I spoil my fun....


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## broken tee

Then I invoke Rule 3-3 Alright sen'se even if I'm wrong on the previous rule I don't see where those two rules are intended for match play.


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## Surtees

mmmmmm well normally that great player Luke has his ball in play and the weak bladdered Bob is out of play more often then he goes to the toilet. So that awesome golfer Luke would win the round whatever the outcome is here.


----------



## broken tee

Surtees said:


> mmmmmm well normally that great player Luke has his ball in play and the weak bladdered Bob is out of play more often then he goes to the toilet. So that awesome golfer Luke would win the round whatever the outcome is here.


Hey! Hey! Hey! Bogey man, you holed out with par I birdied and that's why I carry the URO club.:cheeky4:


----------



## Surtees

I think 6.8 should be brought in all this with discontinuation of play. I don't get how 20-7 is match play it title is 20-7 (c) Stroke play???????

c. Stroke Play
If a competitor makes a stroke from a wrong place, he incurs a penalty of
two strokes under the applicable Rule. He must play out the hole with the
ball played from the wrong place, without correcting his error, provided he
has not committed a serious breach (see Note 1).
If a competitor becomes aware that he has played from a wrong place and
believes that he may have committed a serious breach, he must, before
making a stroke on the next teeing ground, play out the hole with a second
ball played in accordance with the Rules. If the hole being played is the last
hole of the round, he must declare, before leaving the putting green, that he
will play out the hole with a second ball played in accordance with the
Rules.
If the competitor has played a second ball, he must report the facts to the
Committee before returning his score card; if he fails to do so,
he is disqualified.The Committee must determine whether the competitor
has committed a serious breach of the applicable Rule. If he has, the score
with the second ball counts and the competitor must add two penalty
strokes to his score with that ball. If the competitor has committed a serious
breach and has failed to correct it as outlined above, he is disqualified.
Note 1: A competitor is deemed to have committed a serious breach of
the applicable Rule if the Committee considers he has gained a significant
advantage as a result of playing from a wrong place.
Note 2: If a competitor plays a second ball under Rule 20-7c and it is
ruled not to count, strokes made with that ball and penalty strokes incurred
solely by playing that ball are disregarded. If the second ball is ruled to
count, the stroke made from the wrong place and any strokes subsequently
taken with the original ball including penalty strokes incurred solely by
playing that ball are disregarded.


----------



## Fourputt

Ok here we go. Get ready for a long ride.

1) Luke incurs no penalty for lifting Bob's ball. Rule 18-4 applies in Stroke play:



> *Ball at Rest Moved*
> 
> *18-4. By Fellow-Competitor, Caddie or Equipment in Stroke Play*
> 
> If a fellow-competitor, his caddie or his equipment moves the player's ball, touches it or causes it to move, there is no penalty. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced.


Lifting in this case is moving a ball at rest. In match play Luke would incur a 1 stroke penalty.

2) When is a ball not in play. See the Definition of "ball in play". 



> *Ball in Play*
> 
> A ball is "in play" as soon as the player has made a stroke on the teeing ground. It remains in play until it is holed, *except when it is lost, out of bounds or lifted,* or another ball has been substituted, whether or not the substitution is permitted; a ball so substituted becomes the ball in play.
> 
> If a ball is played from outside the teeing ground when the player is starting play of a hole, or when attempting to correct this mistake, the ball is not in play and Rule 11-4 or 11-5 applies. Otherwise, ball in play includes a ball played from outside the teeing ground when the player elects or is required to play his next stroke from the teeing ground.


From this we see that the ball is out of play when it has been lifted. When he marked Bob's ball and set it aside, Luke took Bob's ball out of play.

3) When Bob apparently played from a wrong place, the ball he played was out of play because it had been lifted and had not been replaced. Thus the ball could not be in a wrong place, it wasn't even in play. Under the rules what Bob did was play a wrong ball in breach of Rule 15-3. Decision 15-3b/3 explains:



> 15-3b/3 Fellow-Competitor Lifts Competitor's Ball and Sets It Aside; Competitor Plays Ball from Where Set Aside
> 
> Q. In stroke play, B marked the position of A's ball on the putting green, lifted it and placed it nearby on the green. A failed to replace the ball. He putted it from where it lay and holed out. The error was then discovered. What is the ruling?
> 
> A. When a ball is lifted, it is out of play — see Definition of "Ball in Play." When A played a stroke with his ball which was out of play, he played a wrong ball.
> 
> If A knew that B had lifted his ball, he incurred a penalty of two strokes under Rule 15-3b and was required to replace his ball on the correct spot and play out the hole.
> 
> If A did not know that B had lifted his ball, A could not be penalized for playing a wrong ball. *If he became aware of the mistake before playing from the next tee, he was required to replace his ball on the correct spot, without penalty, and complete the hole.* If he learned of the mistake after playing from the next tee, the score with the wrong ball would stand and there would be no penalty.


Since Bob was made aware of the breach before he played his next tee shot, he incurs no penalty if he replays the putt from the correct spot. If he fails to do so, he is disqualified from the competition. In any case the birdie does not stand. 

So Luke is off the hook and Bob may yet 3-putt. :laugh:

Very clear and simple isn't it?


----------



## broken tee

Rick you dirty &*%tard you just had to stick it to me :laugh: Now my young friend's head is inflated Although I didn't quote the rules you did; the actions I stated were correct, so why is rule 20-7 not applicable here? That's how I arrived at the decision to replay the stoke and not incurr 2 penalty strokes.I do see how 15-3b/3 is a more explicite rule.

good one:thumbsup:


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Rick you dirty &*%tard you just had to stick it to me :laugh: Now my young friend's head is inflated Although I didn't quote the rules you did; the actions I stated were correct, so why is rule 20-7 not applicable here? That's how I arrived at the decision to replay the stoke and not incurr 2 penalty strokes.I do see how 15-3b/3 is a more explicite rule.
> 
> good one:thumbsup:


This is probably the most difficult procedure to get right, to to even recognize, that I know of. It isn't a common occurrence, but it does happen, which is why I decided to post it. I would have blown it had I encountered it on the course before hashing it out over at the Golf Rewound Rules Forum. 

By the way, had you been correct in the rule you selected, you'd have been wrong in your application of it. When you play from a wrong place, it's a 2 stroke penalty and you must finish with the ball from that place... meaning that you don't go back and correct the mistake, but just finish out the hole, plus two penalty strokes. In this case, had the ball been marked, then the marker moved per procedure, and you replaced the ball and played from that place, then you would have just added 2 strokes to your birdie under 20-7, turning it into a bogey. 

The only time that you would correct the error under 20-7 is if you feel that you have made a _serious breach_, such as dropping incorrectly from a hazard in such a place as gives you a significant advantage over the spot where you should have dropped (say 100 yards closer to the hole, or taking a tree out of your line of play, etc.). Then you must go back and correct your mistake before playing from the next tee or be disqualified (assuming a competition situation).


----------



## broken tee

I may not like getting a bogey especial if I'm playing against the Lacky but I understand the verbage and logic better. Have a good day its 4f here. I'm sure thats a hell of a lot warmer then the mid section and our friends in Canada


----------



## Surtees

ah there goes your first ever birdie Bob.... It was 34c here today thats about 93f for you. Reading the rules is one thing but actaully applying them can be tricky


----------



## broken tee

Surtees said:


> ah there goes your first ever birdie Bob.... It was 34c here today thats about 93f for you. Reading the rules is one thing but actaully applying them can be tricky


You're right about applyimg the rules, just when I find one that is logical to my thinking I find out I suck, this is why I enjoy this thread. this is simular to thinking like my wife I haven't been right yet


----------



## Surtees

Thanks Gatonet.

Here’s any interesting one that has happen. 
What would the ruling be if you were teeing off an elevated tee ground so due to the course lay out the bags get left in front of the tee ground at about a 45-50 degree angle to the straight line of the hole. If someone namely me totally shanks their tee shot and drills it straight into one of the bag and just happens to get it in the open ball pocket. What’s the rule here?

What happen was all laughed really hard, my mate told me he was keeping my ball and I just teed off again, we were playing in a casual round though.


----------



## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> Thanks Gatonet.
> 
> Here’s any interesting one that has happen.
> What would the ruling be if you were teeing off an elevated tee ground so due to the course lay out the bags get left in front of the tee ground at about a 45-50 degree angle to the straight line of the hole. If someone namely me totally shanks their tee shot and drills it straight into one of the bag and just happens to get it in the open ball pocket. What’s the rule here?
> 
> What happen was all laughed really hard, my mate told me he was keeping my ball and I just teed off again, we were playing in a casual round though.


If it was your bag you'd incur a one stroke penalty and play the ball as it lies. In this case since it lies in the pocket, you would remove the ball from the pocket, then move the bag away and drop the ball on the spot directly under where it was in the bag. Since it was your mates bag, no penalty but the same procedure. Either way the stroke should have counted.... Your mates are far too generous. 

A friend of mine did that once. He hit his stand bag smack on part of the stand mechanism. It snapped a piece of the plastic under the fabric and made the stand useless. He'd just bought the bag 2 months earlier.... :laugh:


----------



## Surtees

Thanks Rick this did happen a while ago but it was very fun even more so be the fact tha tI got it in the ball pocket of his bag, but as I said it was a casual round so we weren't to worried about the scores. In match play I think we would of been asking an offical...

I bet your friend was a little upset when he broke his bag did he just turn it into a cart bag?


----------



## broken tee

When talking about the tee box, I think a lot of the weekend warriors are mis-informed on the size. Did we bring this up in any of our discussions?


----------



## Surtees

tee-box size???? what exactly do you mean Bob? Do you mean where exactly to tee off from? Don't you just normally use the ladies? There is the tee box but on most courses there are three markers to tee of from mens, ladies and green fee players. I know on the pro courses there can be four but in general it's three well around here anyway.


----------



## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> tee-box size???? what exactly do you mean Bob? Do you mean where exactly to tee off from? Don't you just normally use the ladies? There is the tee box but on most courses there are three markers to tee of from mens, ladies and green fee players. I know on the pro courses there can be four but in general it's three well around here anyway.


To be specific, there actually isn't anything called a "tee box". It is called the _teeing ground_, and at any one time there is only one such area on the golf course. This is the definition:



> *Teeing Ground*
> The "teeing ground" is the starting place for the hole to be played. It is a rectangular area two club-lengths in depth, the front and the sides of which are defined by the outside limits of two tee-markers. A ball is outside the teeing ground when all of it lies outside the teeing ground.


The size is determined by the spacing of the 2 tee markers. Width is determined by the outside edges of the tee markers. You measure from the front edge of the markers back 2 clublengths to determine the depth. Any further back is not in the _teeing ground_. Anything outside of the markers laterally or forward is not in the _teeing ground_. The term _teeing ground_ applies only to the tees where you start the current hole. The tee areas of other holes are not _teeing ground_ under the rules until you are playing that hole.


----------



## broken tee

Surtees said:


> tee-box size???? what exactly do you mean Bob? Do you mean where exactly to tee off from? Don't you just normally use the ladies? There is the tee box but on most courses there are three markers to tee of from mens, ladies and green fee players. I know on the pro courses there can be four but in general it's three well around here anyway.


I only tee off the ladies tees when I play guys of your caliber of golf.. they're generally on they're third stroke:cheeky4: There is a size to the teeing area,it got me too. I thought it was anywhere behind the markers, but I was wrong. what you're talking about are the teeing ground based on handicap. such as white for high, blue for low and black for scratch. this is how I understand the markers. I love those guys that hit like me and play the furthest
markers back. Look it up it will surprise you just how big the area is that you can tee in.

well Rick beat me


----------



## Surtees

Our tee off coluors here a white or blue for men comp ( longest tee off) red- ladies(closest) yellow- green fees (somewhere in the middle. As always Rick has given us a answer.


----------



## broken tee

Surtees said:


> Our tee off ( longest tee off) red- ladies(closest) yellow- green fees (somewhere in the middle. As always Rick has given us a answer.


So your longest tee off was closest to the Red or smewhere in the middle by the yellow. huuuummmmm I think Buck and I would have no problems kicking your butt in a long drive contest I'm still waiting for Rick or someone to affirm or denies my reference to the markers color/colour


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> So your longest tee off was closest to the Red or smewhere in the middle by the yellow. huuuummmmm I think Buck and I would have no problems kicking your butt in a long drive contest I'm still waiting for Rick or someone to affirm or denies my reference to the markers color/colour


I missed the question when I read that earlier... tee color is meaningless. I've seen bronze, silver, copper, etc.... you sort that one out. And Arrowhead GC here has the Black Bear, Arrowhead, Silver Fox, and Columbine tees????? :dunno: 

Look at the scorecard. Compare course rating, slope, and length for the different tee sets and make your choice that way. I can play a course that is near 7000 yards if the rating is 69 or 70 and the slope is under 130. But if the 7000 yard rating is 74 and the slope is 138, then I'm moving up one or two tee boxes to a length and rating that is more suited to my erratic swing. I've played 6000 yard courses that gave me all I wanted. 

You have to go by the numbers not by the color of the markers.


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## Surtees

Yes we have courses here with different colored marks there is normally a sign at the club house telling you want color mark means what.


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## broken tee

Surtees said:


> Yes we have courses here with different colored marks there is normally a sign at the club house telling you want color mark means what.


You are slipping young man:laugh:


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## Surtees

I was just thinking is that the best you've got you re-used something I said to you and just rearranged it a little..


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## broken tee

You just need golf therapy


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## broken tee

Rule 8. Advice; Indicating Line of Play 
Definitions
All defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in the Definitions section.



8-1. Advice
During a stipulated round, a player must not:


(a) give advice to anyone in the competition playing on the course other than his partner, or


(b) ask for advice from anyone other than his partner or either of their caddies.

note this is in competition, but lets face it when we play for fun with friends we give advice


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## Surtees

nice find Bob are you going to replace Rick?????


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## broken tee

Let's say Rick gave us the tools to understand competitive golf and fair play.:thumbsup:


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Rule 8. Advice; Indicating Line of Play
> Definitions
> All defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in the Definitions section.
> 
> 
> 
> 8-1. Advice
> During a stipulated round, a player must not:
> 
> 
> (a) give advice to anyone in the competition playing on the course other than his partner, or
> 
> 
> (b) ask for advice from anyone other than his partner or either of their caddies.
> 
> note this is in competition, but lets face it when we play for fun with friends we give advice


Even more to the the point of his question:



> Advice
> "Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the *choice of a club* or the method of making a stroke.
> 
> Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.


See Bob... you still need me.  When answering a question on a term in the rules, it never hurts to check the definitions first. Many questions can be answered there without even having to look further.

And by the way, I don't give such advice even in casual rounds... it's more likely to harm that help an opponent. If he wants to know what I hit, we discuss it afterward, and this story is why. One par 3 (#17) on my home course plays between 135 and 145 yards, slightly down hill. I usually hit a 7 or 8 iron, which is one or 2 clubs more than most of the guys I play with. One day we had a bit of a head wind, so I hit a punched little 6I instead of my usual club. My buddy asked what I hit, and I just answered without thinking. He pulled a 6I and instead of the little 3/4 punch, he hit a full swing and airmailed the green, down the slope in back and under a spruce tree on the 8th hole, some 40 yards too far. While I made an easy par, he made an ugly triple bogey, and ever since then I just don't answer when asked. What I'll say is that I don't hit my irons as far as others do, so what I played won't help him, but I don't tell him the club until after he has played. 

In a tournament it is a 2 stroke penalty on a player if he only asks for such advice, even if he doesn't receive an answer.


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## Surtees

In casual play my normal group will say what they hit if asked, I am prob about 5-10m shorter with my long irons but we have mention before that if you copy someone else club selction and bin the shot it was your own choice. Most of us should know our games well enough to make the right club selection most of the times.


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## broken tee

Rick: Thank you master for adjusting young grasshoppers attention to detail good to hear from you:thumbsup:


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## Surtees

I have a what if for you all
it's a par 3 hole
What would happen if Cajun teeed off after Bob and followed Bob into the rough but Cajun hit deeper into the rough and wasn't sure if he would find his ball. So Cajun played a 2nd ball down and got a hole in one! Just to add to the sadness of Bobs round. Now Cajun was over joyed as you'd expect. Walking down the hole Cajun was help Bob find his ball yet again and he stumbled across his first ball which had forgotten about because he was so happy. Now Bob said the his hole in one doesn't count and he has to play the first ball is this true?
(p.s Bobs thinks thats fair as he has only ever made one birdie!)


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## Cajun

Yes, I would have to play the first ball since the second was hit as a provisional, albiet a hole in one. That's the way I read the rules anyway....


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## Fourputt

Don't get so excited Cajun... it isn't a hole in one anyway. :laugh: It's only a par even if that ball counts, which it probably won't.

It would depend on whether Cajun had declared the 2nd ball to be a _provisional ball_. If he did then it only becomes the ball in play when he lifts it out of the hole. Thus if his original ball was found before the 5 minute search period was up, then he must continue play with the original ball and the _provisional ball_ must be abandoned.

So the facts to be determined here are:

1. Did Cajun declare the 2nd ball to be a _provisional ball_?
2. Did he find his original ball within the 5 minute search period?

This is the applicable decision:



> *27-2b/2 When Provisional Ball Holed Becomes Ball in Play*
> 
> Q. At a short hole, A's tee shot may be out of bounds or lost, so he plays a provisional ball, which he holes. A does not wish to look for his original ball. B, A's opponent or a fellow-competitor, goes to look for the original ball. When does the provisional ball become the ball in play?
> 
> A. In equity (Rule 1-4), the provisional ball becomes the ball in play as soon as A picks it out of the hole, provided his original ball has not already been found in bounds within five minutes of B starting to search for it.


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## Cajun

There you have it sports fans!  I didn't even think about the fact that the holed ball would actually be a par shot. Good call Rick, thanks for the great explanation.


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## broken tee

Surtees said:


> I have a what if for you all
> it's a par 3 hole
> What would happen if Cajun teeed off after Bob and followed Bob into the rough but Cajun hit deeper into the rough and wasn't sure if he would find his ball. So Cajun played a 2nd ball down and got a hole in one! Just to add to the sadness of Bobs round. Now Cajun was over joyed as you'd expect. Walking down the hole Cajun was help Bob find his ball yet again and he stumbled across his first ball which had forgotten about because he was so happy. Now Bob said the his hole in one doesn't count and he has to play the first ball is this true?
> (p.s Bobs thinks thats fair as he has only ever made one birdie!)


If cajun was following Bob it is obvious that Bob had honors rule 10-2 which means Bob was not having a bad round in comparison to Cajun. Since Cajun put his ball into deeper rough than Bob its still obvious that Bob is a much better player than Cajun, Bob just missed the green due to a strong gust of wind, so Bob just had a chip and maybe a putt, after all Bob was playing par golf.


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## Surtees

Yes Cajun played it as a provisional ball and found it within 5 min. Bob Cajun was just re-applying sunscreen so he didn'tget burnt with all the time he was spending on the fairway so for speed of play you teeed of first. Plus he thought it may of boosted your spirts.


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## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> Yes Cajun played it as a provisional ball and found it within 5 min.


In that case Cajun would have to abandon the provisional ball and finish the hole with his original ball. 

Nice practice shot anyway Cajun! :cheeky4:


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## Cajun

Fourputt said:


> Nice practice shot anyway Cajun! :cheeky4:


Thanks, but I make those imaginary hole in ones all the time.


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## broken tee

Surtees said:


> Yes Cajun played it as a provisional ball and found it within 5 min. Bob Cajun was just re-applying sunscreen so he didn'tget burnt with all the time he was spending on the fairway so for speed of play you teeed of first. Plus he thought it may of boosted your spirts.


I'll have to reread rule 10, but a 2 stroke penalty gets applied here. I can't remember on who, but I think its poor Bob.:dunno:
Didn't read that any penalty applied under rule 10, but other rules may apply they were mentioned just didn't research further.


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## gatonet

Hey Rick. A non-professional said to me once during a leisurely round, "what I pay for greens fees, I'm taking all the swings I can." He has fun...


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## Surtees

Yes thats a joke my mates I play with say when one of us are having a good round the others just say we are getting better value for money.


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## broken tee

Surtees said:


> Yes thats a joke my mates I play with say when one of us are having a good round the others just say we are getting better value for money.


You've been saying that way too much lately. You're lucky I'm not afluent enough to hop a plane and show you how to get the most for your buck in a round of golf..,


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## Surtees

you'd getter even better bang for your buck here with the conversion rate!


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## broken tee

.20 cents on the dollar


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## Surtees

nope you get $1.10 AUS for each of your US dollars so why wouldn't you come and visit.


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## broken tee

Surtees said:


> nope you get $1.10 AUS for each of your US dollars so why wouldn't you come and visit.


My darling wife says so, but I would in a heart beat:thumbsup:


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## 373

One of my great regrets is not having visited Australia when I used to go to the Philippines about 4-5 times a year. It's not that they are actually so close, but they are a lot closer than going down under from Miami. Back then, I even had golfing friends from Jamaica who had relocated to Melbourne. I think he was with Shell Oil down there. It would have been cheap, easy and filled with an economy of movement to add a nice vacation to a business trip. 

Oh well, I continue to be stupid when it comes to doing things like that, always making two trips when one would have done it. You don't want to ask how many times I've been to the grocery this week, then back to the gas station next door to the grocery, then back to the pharmacy to pick up prescriptions, right next to the grocery... and the bag for Goodwill is still sitting by the door, Goodwill is in the parking lot at the grocery... I'm lucky I remembered to put on underwear this morning.


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## Cajun

Ok, I have a rule question for this week. I heard this story in the club house earlier today at my local course when I took a break at the turn. A couple of old timers had finished their round and were sitting around eating hotdogs and slinging bull. One guy was saying that a hawk had picked up his ball after his drive, flew half way to the flag before dropping it back in the fairway making his drive 320+ yards. He said he continued to play the ball without any penalty, laughing that it was the longest drive he had hit in 25 years. Should he have continued to play the ball where the hawk dropped it or should he have played from his original drive location?


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## Cajun

By the way, a hawk assisted drive is more believeable than me aceing anything.


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## broken tee

Cajun said:


> Ok, I have a rule question for this week. I heard this story in the club house earlier today at my local course when I took a break at the turn. A couple of old timers had finished their round and were sitting around eating hotdogs and slinging bull. One guy was saying that a hawk had picked up his ball after his drive, flew half way to the flag before dropping it back in the fairway making his drive 320+ yards. He said he continued to play the ball without any penalty, laughing that it was the longest drive he had hit in 25 years. Should he have continued to play the ball where the hawk dropped it or should he have played from his original drive location?


Good question, I'm not sure where to start in the rule book. Kind of simular to the the joke of the priest playing golf on Sunday morning. hits his drive a squirrel picks it up starts toward the hole then an eagle grabs the the squirrel just over the green the squirrel lets go of the ball and in to the hole. God says " who is he going to tell?"

I'm going to say rule 19-1(A) would apply at a quick glance


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## gatonet

I would also like to know the answer to that one.
A friend of mine and I were playing a course near Lake Lure in Ashland, NC. He teed off and the ball was surely going into the woods left. But a crow flew out of the trees. The ball hit the crow and fell in play. We were'nt sure how to rule it so he played it as it lied.


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## stevel1017

19-1. By Outside Agency
If a ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency, it is a rub of the green, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies except: 

a. If a ball in motion after a stroke other than on the putting green comes to rest in or on any moving or animate outside agency, the player must, through the green or in a hazard, drop the ball, or on the putting green place the ball, as near as possible to the spot where the outside agency was when the ball came to rest in or on it, and 
b. If a player's ball in motion after a stroke on the putting green is deflected or stopped by, or comes to rest in or on, any moving or animate outside agency, except a worm, insect or the like, the stroke is canceled. The ball must be replaced and replayed.
19-3. By Opponent, Caddie or Equipment in Match Play
If a player’s ball is accidentally deflected or stopped by an opponent, his caddie or his equipment, there is no penalty. The player may, before another stroke is made by either side, cancel the stroke and play a ball without penalty as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5) or he may play the ball as it lies.
However, if the player elects not to cancel the stroke and the ball has come to rest in or on the opponent’s or his caddie’s clothes or equipment, the player must through the green or in a hazard drop the ball, or on the putting green place the ball, as near as possible to where the article was when the ball came to rest in or on it.

Exception: Ball striking person attending or holding up flagstick or anything carried by him — see Rule 17-3b.
(Ball purposely deflected or stopped by opponent or caddie — see Rule 1-2.)

19-4. By Fellow-Competitor, Caddie or Equipment in Stroke Play
See Rule 19-1 regarding ball deflected by outside agency.

Exception: Ball striking person attending or holding up flagstick or anything carried by him — see Rule 17-3b.

19-5. By Another Ball
• a. At Rest
If a player’s ball in motion after a stroke is deflected or stopped by a ball in play and at rest, the player must play his ball as it lies. In match play, there is no penalty. In stroke play, there is no penalty unless both balls lay on the putting green prior to the stroke, in which case the player incurs a penalty of two strokes. 

• b. In Motion 
If a player’s ball in motion after a stroke is deflected or stopped by another ball in motion after a stroke, the player must play his ball as it lies. There is no penalty unless the player was in breach of Rule 16-1f, in which case he incurs the penalty for breach of that Rule. 

Exception: If the player’s ball is in motion after a stroke on the putting green and the other ball in motion is an outside agency — see Rule 19-1b.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play — Loss of hole; Stroke play — Two strokes.


----------



## Fourputt

Cajun said:


> Ok, I have a rule question for this week. I heard this story in the club house earlier today at my local course when I took a break at the turn. A couple of old timers had finished their round and were sitting around eating hotdogs and slinging bull. One guy was saying that a hawk had picked up his ball after his drive, flew half way to the flag before dropping it back in the fairway making his drive 320+ yards. He said he continued to play the ball without any penalty, laughing that it was the longest drive he had hit in 25 years. Should he have continued to play the ball where the hawk dropped it or should he have played from his original drive location?


Actually it seems to me that 18-1 applies to this. He said "after his drive", which indicates to me that the ball was at rest when the hawk picked it up. The hawk is an _outside agency_. The ball should have been replaced on the spot where his drive originally lay with no penalty. By playing from the new spot, he played from a wrong place (Rule 20-7), and depending on how much distance he gained, it is either a 2 stroke penalty, or if it is deemed a serious breach (which this sounds like), then the committee should impose a penalty of disqualification (if it was a competition).

If the ball was still in motion when picked up by a moving outside agency (the hawk), then 19-1a applies and the ball should be dropped as close as possible to the point where the hawk first made contact with it. Once again Rule 20-7 comes into play for playing from a wrong place, and the same penalties apply.

Rules 18 and 19 are covered very carefully and thoroughly in the rules workshop because they come into play so often on the course.


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## Cajun

Thanks guys that clears it up for sure. I believe it was just a casual round, so no disqualification is in order, but I'll razz him a little about adding a couple of strokes to his score from that day.


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## broken tee

Good grief Rick there are egos that need a little TLC. Steve and I didn't get a byline here...OH! the hurt:laugh:


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## gatonet

Hey Steve, Thanks! That certainly clears up many doubts about various scenarios, some I had,'nt even considered.
But, according to your findings, when my friends ball hit the crow and dropped into the fairway, we played it correctly.

Thank you!


----------



## 373

I always found it interesting that certain outside agencies got you relief and others you had to play. For example, can fear be an outside agency?

One club on Miami Beach has some very large iguanas around the lakes there and they tend to branch out in search of sunshine when the shade of trees around the lakes doesn't suit them. There have been many a golfer who was afraid of them, (some are 4'-5' long), and abandoned a ball laying nearby. They aren't dangerous, but try to convince some people and you'll be talking to the deaf.

The club made a local rule to protect them and in casual play, it's listed on the card that the iguanas are not to be disturbed, but to essentially give them a wide berth. I don't know what the rule would be for a tournament, unless one of the lizards actually picked up a ball and I've never heard of that happening.

If I could just find a way to make wind, trees and deep grass outside agencies, I'm sure I'd be a better golfer. If I could find a way to make a sand trap an outside agency, I'd bottle and sell it, then retire within a year.


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Good grief Rick there are egos that need a little TLC. Steve and I didn't get a byline here...OH! the hurt:laugh:


Bob... not sure why your ego was bruised. Yes you mentioned 19-1a, but that may not even be the applicable rule. As with any ruling, you first have to ascertain the facts as best you can, then make your ruling based on how those facts fit into the rules. Since the facts in this case were a bit sketchy, I had to go with how it appeared from the language used, and that made me feel that Rule 18-1 was more applicable because I felt that the ball was at rest when the hawk took action. The old timer didn't say "during his drive" (Rule 19-1a) but he did say "after his drive" (Rule 18-1). 

The only fact we know for sure is that the ball was moved by an outside agency. We aren't even sure what the form of play was, and that too is crucial to making any ruling. If it was match play, then the player lost the hole as soon as he made a stroke at a ball from a wrong place, and nothing else matters. Regardless of whether rule 18 or rule 19 applies, he played from a wrong place and the general penalty for the applicable rule is applied by Rule 20-7. Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - 2 strokes plus the threat of disqualification in the case of a serious breach.



> *20-7. Playing from Wrong Place*
> 
> *a. General*
> 
> A player has played from a wrong place if he makes a stroke at his ball in play:
> 
> (i) on a part of the course where the Rules do not permit a stroke to be played or a ball to be dropped or placed; or
> 
> (ii) when the Rules require a dropped ball to be re-dropped or a moved ball to be replaced.
> 
> Note: For a ball played from outside the teeing ground or from a wrong teeing ground - see Rule 11-4.
> 
> *b. Match Play*
> 
> If a player makes a stroke from a wrong place, he loses the hole.
> 
> *c. Stroke Play*
> 
> If a competitor makes a stroke from a wrong place, he incurs a penalty of two strokes under the applicable Rule. He must play out the hole with the ball played from the wrong place, without correcting his error, provided he has not committed a serious breach (see Note 1).
> 
> If a competitor becomes aware that he has played from a wrong place and believes that he may have committed a serious breach, he must, before making a stroke on the next teeing ground, play out the hole with a second ball played in accordance with the Rules. If the hole being played is the last hole of the round, he must declare, before leaving the putting green, that he will play out the hole with a second ball played in accordance with the Rules.
> 
> If the competitor has played a second ball, he must report the facts to the Committee before returning his score card; if he fails to do so, he is disqualified. The Committee must determine whether the competitor has committed a serious breach of the applicable Rule. If he has, the score with the second ball counts and the competitor must add two penalty strokes to his score with that ball. If the competitor has committed a serious breach and has failed to correct it as outlined above, he is disqualified.
> 
> Note 1: A competitor is deemed to have committed a serious breach of the applicable Rule if the Committee considers he has gained a significant advantage as a result of playing from a wrong place.
> 
> Note 2: If a competitor plays a second ball under Rule 20-7c and it is ruled not to count, strokes made with that ball and penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball are disregarded. If the second ball is ruled to count, the stroke made from the wrong place and any strokes subsequently taken with the original ball including penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball are disregarded.
> 
> Note 3: If a player incurs a penalty for making a stroke from a wrong place, there is no additional penalty for substituting a ball when not permitted.


----------



## Fourputt

DennisM said:


> I always found it interesting that certain outside agencies got you relief and others you had to play. For example, can fear be an outside agency?
> 
> One club on Miami Beach has some very large iguanas around the lakes there and they tend to branch out in search of sunshine when the shade of trees around the lakes doesn't suit them. There have been many a golfer who was afraid of them, (some are 4'-5' long), and abandoned a ball laying nearby. They aren't dangerous, but try to convince some people and you'll be talking to the deaf.
> 
> The club made a local rule to protect them and in casual play, it's listed on the card that the iguanas are not to be disturbed, but to essentially give them a wide berth. I don't know what the rule would be for a tournament, unless one of the lizards actually picked up a ball and I've never heard of that happening.
> 
> If I could just find a way to make wind, trees and deep grass outside agencies, I'm sure I'd be a better golfer. If I could find a way to make a sand trap an outside agency, I'd bottle and sell it, then retire within a year.


Fear is not an outside agency. Trees are, but I don't know how that helps you? An outside agency is any physical thing (person, club, tree, stone, squirrel, etc.) except as noted in the definition.



> Outside Agency
> 
> In match play, an "outside agency" is any agency other than either the player's or opponent'sside, any caddie of either side, any ball played by either side at the hole being played or any equipment of either side.
> 
> In stroke play, an outside agency is any agency other than the competitor's side, any caddie of the side, any ball played by the side at the hole being played or any equipment of the side.
> 
> An outside agency includes a referee, a marker, an observer and a forecaddie. Neither wind nor water is an outside agency.


You are allowed relief from a condition which is hazardous, but since an iguana isn't dangerous, no relief should be allowed. The player may deem his ball unplayable and proceed under Rule 28, but it's going to cost him a penalty stroke. We have coyotes on the course here, and they often seek shade under the trees on the course on hot summer days. I've played shots within 30 feet of a coyote more than once, and that would seem to be more risky than playing near an iguana. This is the decision:



> *1-4/10 Dangerous Situation; Rattlesnake or Bees Interfere with Play*
> 
> Q. A player's ball comes to rest in a situation dangerous to the player, e.g., near a live rattlesnake or a bees' nest. Does the player have any options in addition to playing the ball as it lies or, if applicable, proceeding under Rule 26 or 28?
> 
> A. Yes. It is unreasonable to expect the player to play from such a dangerous situation and unfair to require the player to incur a penalty under Rule 26 (Water Hazards) or Rule 28 (Ball Unplayable).
> 
> If the ball lay through the green, the player may, without penalty, drop a ball within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest spot not nearer the hole that is not dangerous and is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.
> 
> If the ball lay in a hazard, the player may drop a ball, without penalty, within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest spot not nearer the hole that is not dangerous. If possible, the ball must be dropped in the same hazard and, if not possible, in a similar nearby hazard, but in either case not nearer the hole. If it is not possible for the player to drop the ball in a hazard, he may drop it, under penalty of one stroke, outside the hazard, keeping the point where the original ball lay between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped.
> 
> If the ball lay on the putting green, the player may, without penalty, place a ball at the nearest spot not nearer the hole that is not dangerous and that is not in a hazard.
> 
> If it is clearly unreasonable for the player to make a stroke because of interference by anything other than the dangerous situation or if the situation would be dangerous only through the use of an unnecessarily abnormal stance, swing, or direction of play, he may not take relief as prescribed above, but he is not precluded from proceeding under Rule 26 or 28 if applicable. (Revised)


----------



## broken tee

Rick: Let's split hairs here. I cannot find the definition for at rest, now I know it means the ball has stopped rolling /moving,, So I'm going to say the intent of the association meant that the ball is not at rest until identified except on the putting surface. this is why I chose 19-1(a), what he should have done. Now what the old dude claims about he played from where the ball lay. I agree with you. Remember Rick I'm a teacher&retired Army thats why I have weird humor...no bruised ego here I've told you before this is fun stuff to discuss with you because you're passionate about the rules and I learn from this.:thumbsup: so lets keep this going.


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Rick: Let's split hairs here. I cannot find the definition for at rest, now I know it means the ball has stopped rolling /moving,, So I'm going to say the intent of the association meant that the ball is not at rest until identified except on the putting surface. this is why I chose 19-1(a), what he should have done. Now what the old dude claims about he played from where the ball lay. I agree with you. Remember Rick I'm a teacher&retired Army thats why I have weird humor...no bruised ego here I've told you before this is fun stuff to discuss with you because you're passionate about the rules and I learn from this.:thumbsup: so lets keep this going.


As I said, the facts are sketchy, but language is essential in applying the rules. To me, past tense here indicates a ball at rest. Since none of us saw the incident, we have to go on witness testimony, and in this case that is less than totally informative. It is often no more so on the course for a rules official, yet he is still expected to make the correct ruling. Thus he has to split hairs sometimes in arriving at a decision. In the case in point, the end result is the same... even if the player was to proceed correctly and drop the ball at the point where the hawk and ball met, the result would be the same. I simply tried to pass on my thinking as to why I would have ruled as I did in this case based on the information available. I did that in my "teacher mode" for your benefit. 

It really isn't always helpful to just quote chapter and verse from the rule book. I try to impart the reasons behind the rule and/or behind my thinking on the proposed scenario. I can tell just by the change in the way these discussions run that you are picking up on some of the nuances, and I find that gratifying, both as a personal reward for my admittedly small skills as a teacher, and for my larger view of you as player who is beginning to get a handle on the rules, which enriches the game as a whole. Gonna continue this in an other post....


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## Fourputt

My take on the reasons for a player knowing how to play by the rules.

Too many players today just look at the rules as an unnecessary irrelevancy that gets in the way of having fun. 100 years ago such an attitude would have made you a pariah in the community of golfers. I think that the ideal is somewhere in between. The average player doesn't need the expertise of a USGA Rules official, but he does need to know that he can play by the basic rules on course and still have fun playing the game. The benefit to the player is that he then has the same measurement standard as every other player who plays the game by the rules. He can talk about how he played such and such a course on this or that day with someone from the other side of the world and they are talking about the same thing... the same game. If a so-called player is in complete ignorance of the rules and makes no attempt to change that attitude then he never plays the same game twice in a row himself, much less has anything to report to anyone else about. His score is irrelevant because his yardstick for measuring is different every time he plays.

Here is where my passion for the rules comes from. I joined the USGA associates program back in the 1980's. Part of the membership package was a copy of The Rules of Golf. What a revelation!! I read it, got interested and started studying it, reading and contemplating on a different rule each day during my lunch at work. I sent for the current copy of the Decisions and started doing the same thing with that. I'm sure that I was an utter bore for a few weeks, but I taught myself a lot during that time. This was pre-internet, so I didn't have the resources that we have today, had nobody to discuss my questions with, so I still developed a few misconceptions. I didn't take any formal training until the mid 90's when I took a 2 day Rules workshop. I learned better how to read and study the rules there... how to use the book properly. From that point I've been pretty dedicated to helping anyone who shows interest to reach a point of comfort with the rules. Not necessarily professional expertise, but just being able to apply correct procedures on course, like the above situation with the hawk. 

I started carrying a handicap in 1988 and that necessitated playing by the rules. I've pretty much lived by the rules on course ever since, and amazingly enough, I still manage to have fun.


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## broken tee

I can't remember the situation , but you applied 3 or 4 rules just in lifting and dropping the ball. Where do you begin when more than one rule can apply?


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## gatonet

That's very interesting.
Of course you know we have the other Lizards around our lakes in Florida too.

I heard a very good Tip from a Pro this weekend concerning bunkers.
Most of us shape our shots away from bunkers.
He said, and I confirmed it, that the pros will aim AT a bunker and shape their shots to avoid it.

So, next time your teeing off Dennis, let's see if you have the courage to aim it at the bunker. lol


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> I can't remember the situation , but you applied 3 or 4 rules just in lifting and dropping the ball. Where do you begin when more than one rule can apply?


Bob... I'm going to post a page from the Rules of Golf that isn't included in the online version. I recommend that you copy and save it somewhere accessible and use it when you have a question. It might help. If you have a paper copy of the book it's the first page after the books title page. A rules official will follow this format for every ruling he makes on the golf course. This is what it says:

HOW TO USE THE RULES BOOK

UNDERSTAND THE WORDS
The Rules book is written in a very precise and deliberate fashion. You should be aware of and understand the following differences in word use:

may = optional

should = recommendation

must = instruction (and penalty if not carried out)

a ball = you may substitute another ball (e.g. Rules 26, 27, and 28)

the ball = you may not substitute another ball (e.g. Rules 24-2 and 25-1)

KNOW THE DEFINITIONS
There are over 50 defined terms and these form the foundation on which the Rules O Play are written. A good knowledge of the defined terms (which are italicized throughout the book) is very important to the correct application of the Rules.

WHICH RULE APPLIES?
The contents pages may help you find the relevant Rule; alternatively, there is an Index at the back of the book.

WHAT IS THE RULING?
To answer any question on the Rules you must first establish the facts of the case.

To do so you should identify:

1.	The form of play (e.g. match play or stroke play; single, foursome, or fourball?)

2.	Who is involved (e.g. the player, his partner or caddie, an outside agency?)

3.	Where the incident occurred (e.g. on the teeing ground, in a bunker or water hazard, on the putting green, or through the green?)

4.	The player’s intentions (e.g. what was he doing and what does he want to do?)

5.	Any subsequent events (e.g. the player has returned his score card or the competition has closed).

REFER TO THE BOOK
It is recommended that carry a Rules book in your golf bag and use it whenever a question arises. If in doubt, play the course as you find it and play the ball as it lies. Once back in the Clubhouse, reference to the “Decisions on the Rules of Golf” should help resolve any outstanding queries.


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> I can't remember the situation , but you applied 3 or 4 rules just in lifting and dropping the ball. Where do you begin when more than one rule can apply?


Now, to answer this question... start with the above post. Sort out who is involved,and what order things happened in. In match play, quite often, the first player to commit a foul loses the hole, so any subsequent events on that hole are irrelevant. Match play is much easier to police in that respect than stroke play. It's just you against your opponent so any mistake you make only affects him. 

In stroke play the rules are written in such a way as to protect the entire field in a tournament from one player's mistakes. You can theoretically amass a mountain of penalty strokes if you commit a series of acts which breach different rules. 

As a rule of thumb, one action that breaches more than one rule, you only apply the harsher penalty.

Example: Your ball lies in a bunker, with a leaf partly under the ball. You remove the leaf, and in so doing the ball moves. You just broke 2 rules with one act. You were in violation of Rule 18-2a for causing your ball at rest to move. You are also in breach of Rule 23-1 which says that you can't touch or move a loose impediment when your ball and the loose impediment both lie in the same hazard. Under Rule 18-2a you must (note the word must) replace your ball where it lay before you removed the loose impediment, and assess a one stroke penalty. Under Rule 13-4c you incur a 2 stroke penalty for moving the loose impediment in the hazard (thus improving your lie in a way not allowed). The only penalty applied in this case is the 2 strokes for moving the LI. You get to use a get out of jail free card for the other one. 

Also, if several acts result in one rule being breached several times, again it is usually just one application of the penalty. 

Example: You are still in that nasty bunker. You take a practice swing and hit the sand. The you take 3 more practice swings, hitting the sand each time. Rule 13-4 states: 



> *13-4. Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions*
> 
> Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:
> 
> a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;
> 
> b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or
> 
> c. Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard.
> 
> Penalty For Breach of Rule:
> Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.


By rule it should be 2 strokes for each time you made a practice swing, but you have yet another get out of jail free card. You only get charged one time... the other 3 swings are gratis. The only exception is if you are told after the first swing that you are in breach of a rule and you ignore the advice and continue to hit the sand. In that case the committee will probably disqualify you from the competition. A player with such an attitude doesn't belong on a golf course anyway. 

If there are multiple fouls caused by multiple acts, then you have to sort it out in sequence and figure the penalties as they occurred.

So Bob... does this make it any clearer?


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## Surtees

wow guys that was an epic read nice work!


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## Cajun

Yeah, I'm really enjoying this thread. It makes me realize just how little I really know about the rules of the game. I have always tried my best to play by the rules, and I feel like I've been pretty close, but a few of the nuances are catching me off guard.


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## broken tee

Okay I have the Information copied so I shall endeavor to meet the challenges coming this way. should be fun and don't be surprised if you here swearing from the western slope of the Rockies as I get stumped 

A beautiful Sunday morn I'm playing when the frost comes off

Thanks Rick


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## broken tee

Luke, Cajun: I am still a young grasshopper in the rules of golf but as the ox is slow and the earth is patient I shall move toward perfection for you should know by now that I! am BOB.:headbang:


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## broken tee

Cannot find in rules nor do I know what type of match I watch on the golf channel, but does the ball have to drop in the cup or are there exceptions?


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## Fourputt

In stroke play the ball must be holed... no exceptions. Failure to hole out results in disqualification. 

In a Stableford format, there is a maximum number of strokes that are possible for the lowest number of points on a hole, so once you have reached that point you can pick up. (i.e. if you get minus 2 points for double bogey or worse, then if the best you can make on your next stroke is double bogey, you can pick up without penalty.) 

In match play you can concede any stroke, hole or the entire match. Once a concession is made the hole is finished for the person receiving the concession. The player conceding a stroke may still have a stroke for a halve or a win, so he may still continue to play. 

See Rule 2 and Rule 3.


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## gatonet

When Someone throws their clubs into the pond, is that conceding the hole? lol


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## Surtees

I think it might be a sign that you have given up on that hole....


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## broken tee

gatonet said:


> When Someone throws their clubs into the pond, is that conceding the hole? lol


What if the opponent goes in with the club:laugh:


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## FrogsHair

Can some one explain what Graham McDowell did wrong yesterday when hit the ball out of the water hazard? I know he received a two stroke penalty for what ever he did. Thanks in advance.....


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## stevel1017

McDowell owns up to water hazard penalty at Honda Classic - Sun Sentinel

"Right before I took the club head away, I felt like I had just caught a tiny drop of water," McDowell said, feeling he might have violated Rule 13-4, which prohibits grounding a club in a hazard.

McDowell went into the TV booth after completing his round but before signing his scorecard to watch slow-motion replays. He saw that what he had felt was true and called the two-stroke penalty on himself.


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## broken tee

Good eye Steve this is similar to the sand incident.. I forgot who the player was now. see what growing up does to you.


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## stevel1017

growing old is mandatory, growing up is voluntary


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## Surtees

that is the rule I live my life by Steve


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## Fourputt

Bob is playing the 7th hole, a shortish par 4 with a forced carry over a water hazard marked with yellow stakes. Unfortunately, Bob hits his tee shot shorter than planned and it clears the water, but not the far shore. The ball lies on a muddy bank with an uphill lie, but otherwise is a more or less playable lie. Bob decides that he will save the penalty stroke and play the ball from the hazard. He takes his stance and does not ground the club, makes his stroke, and pull hooks the ball out of bounds. Rule 27 says that he must take the stroke and distance penalty and play from the point where the last stroke was made. 

Does that mean that he must drop in the water hazard for his next shot? If not, what options does he have? How many penalty strokes does he incur each of those other options, if any, and where would he be playing from? Enjoy... :laugh:


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## broken tee

if it wasn't for bad luck Bob wouldn't have any luck at all This should be interesting:thumbsup:


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## stevel1017

Play this like any other out-of-bounds shot. Just because you hit your shot from a hazard does not give you further relief nor another penalty. If you don't want to play your next shot from the hazard, then take relief under the normal water hazard rules


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## broken tee

Bob tees off into a staked hazard Stroke 1, next Bob take his 2nd shot. Using rule 27-1 At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke., for three. now play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played. Bob may using 20-5(c) which sets up Bob's 4th shot.
20-5. Making Next Stroke from Where Previous Stroke Made
When a player elects or is required to make his next stroke from where a previous stroke was made, he must proceed as follows: 

c.In a Hazard: The ball to be played must be dropped and when dropped must first strike a part of the course in the hazard. 
the only option I see is Bob calling for a provisional from the tee stroke 3 rule 27-2 under 26-2. Ball Played Within Water Hazard
If a ball played from within a water hazard comes to rest in the same or another water hazard after the stroke, the player may:
(i) proceed under Rule 26-1a. If, after dropping in the hazard, the player elects not to play the dropped ball, he may:
(a) proceed under Rule 26-1b, or if applicable Rule 26-1c, 
adding the additional penalty of one stroke prescribed by the Rule
and using as the reference point the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of this hazard before it came to rest in this hazard; or 
(b)
add an additional penalty of one stroke
and play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which 
the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5); or 
(ii) proceed under Rule 26-1b, or if applicable Rule 26-1c; or
(iii)
under penalty of one stroke, 
play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5).

If a ball played from within a water hazard is lost or deemed unplayable outside the hazard or is out of bounds, the player may, after taking 
a penalty of one stroke under Rule 27-1 or 28a:
(i) play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot in the hazard from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or 
(ii) proceed under Rule 26-1b, or if applicable Rule 26-1c, 
adding the additional penalty of one stroke prescribed by the Rule
and using as the reference point the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the hazard before it came to rest in the hazard; or 
(iii)
add an additional penalty of one stroke
and play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5). 
Note 1: When proceeding under Rule 26-2b, the player is not required to drop a ball under Rule 27-1 or 28a. If he does drop a ball, he is not required to play it. He may alternatively proceed under Rule 26-2b(ii) or (iii).
Note 2: If a ball played from within a water hazard is deemed unplayable outside the hazard, nothing in Rule 26-2b precludes the player from proceeding under Rule 28b or c.
Penalty for Breach of Rule:
Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.


Terms & Conditions Privacy Policy Copyright 2009 United States Golf Association. All rights reserved. 



I'm sticking with this decision I only see stroke and distance and dropping the ball in a hazard alright tell me where I'm wrong:cheeky4:


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## gatonet

Ok. If I understand this correctly. his first ball was in a hazard but not out of bounds, right? He played it and it went out of bounds. According to rule 27 he must take a drop, right? But he cannot drop any closer to the hole. So, he must drop back on the other side of the water and take a stroke for going out of bounds. Plus a stroke for coming back inbounds. Like one in the water, two out, playing three. Help us...lol


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## Surtees

I think this Bob Fellow should just get some lessons then there would be all these mistakes. lets just call it a 10 and move on to the next hole.


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## gatonet

Perhaps he could play from the ladies tees on such holes. lol
Call it a 10... Ha Ha!


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## broken tee

gatonet said:


> Perhaps he could play from the ladies tees on such holes. lol
> Call it a 10... Ha Ha!





Surtees said:


> I think this Bob Fellow should just get some lessons then there would be all these mistakes. lets just call it a 10 and move on to the next hole.


I've met this Bob before he is fun loving, great sense of humor, plays golf with pride maybe not the best but is honest. He is idolized amougest all who meet him. Women just envy his wife that she was so lucky to have married him and he doesn't need any enhancing stuff as advertised on TV. there is so much I could tell you about this amazing man that I could type all day, but I have a tee time and must get ready...Bob I play in honor of you, you're just so amazing.

Good day Gentlemen I must Golf


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## Fourputt

So, nobody wants to try a complete answer to this?


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## Surtees

Bob and Steve had a go I agree with their line of thinking but that doesn't mean its right.


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## gatonet

Was I that far off yesterday?


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## broken tee

Dang it Rick I've edited,read and tried to see the options my only concern is the stakes color does it mean something other than hazard or does it mean ground under repair. which I've seen white, yellow, red and blue stakes and the courses have different meanings plus USGA rules don't specify colors of the stakes either:dunno:


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## Fourputt

Ok... here goes. Rule 26-2b gives the answer.

Option #1: This one you got. Rule 27-1 says he can drop again in the hazard under penalty of stroke and distance. He will be hitting his 4th shot.

But..... What if he is afraid that playing again from the hazard might end up with the same result? Or maybe he did drop on that slippery slope and the ball just rolled down into the water, and is unplayable there. What option does he have now?

Option #2: Rule 26-1b says that he can use the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard before coming to rest in the hazard, and keeping that point between himself and the hole, he can drop anywhere back a long that line. Since the ball played from the hazard ended up out of bounds the point where it crossed leaving the hazard is irrelevant. The reference point is still where it last crossed the margin upon entering the hazard. Thus, he can still use that point, after adding a penalty stroke for the out of bounds and a penalty stroke for getting out of the water hazard, and drop the ball back along that line and be hitting his 5th shot.

Option #3: Similar to Option 2... Under Rule 26-1a he can also return to the tee (the last point where he made a stroke outside of the water hazard) and play his 5th shot from there if there is no reasonable dropping point along the line in Option 2. If this option is taken, he may also tee the ball. In any event, his best case is that he will be hitting his 4th shot, but he will still be in the hazard when he does so. The only way he now gets out of the hazard is to add yet another penalty stroke and move back to the tee side of the hazard. 

In any event, Bob has thoroughly messed up this hole. He should have made the small sacrifice and played one of his options under Rule 26-1 in the first place and he'd only be lying 3 somewhere well toward the green.


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## broken tee

Basically I looked at rules 25, 26, 27 and what I focused on what Bob did but I only saw the one option and posted rule 26 with no explaination...I'll get there


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## broken tee

*New question*

Now that Spring is close at hand the snow is melting. I've noticed that tee markers are not on the teeing ground. Where do you establish the tee box. I say it is any where on the teeing ground. I don't believe the USGA rules specify markers have to be placed.


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Now that Spring is close at hand the snow is melting. I've noticed that tee markers are not on the teeing ground. Where do you establish the tee box. I say it is any where on the teeing ground. I don't believe the USGA rules specify markers have to be placed.


If the course hasn't yet set up markers, then you have no choice. The only condition is that such scores should not be returned for handicap as the course is not properly set up for a stipulated round.


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> If the course hasn't yet set up markers, then you have no choice. The only condition is that such scores should not be returned for handicap as the course is not properly set up for a stipulated round.


I believe it doesn't matter if the tee markers are placed Rick as long that competitors agree to tee from the same ground I'm sure decision 11-4b(3) would cover that. see if you agree.


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> I believe it doesn't matter if the tee markers are placed Rick as long that competitors agree to tee from the same ground I'm sure decision 11-4b(3) would cover that. see if you agree.


I don't know how your course does it, but most courses try to move the tees according to where the hole is cut each day. That way they maintain approximately the same yardage all of the time. If the hole is cut in the front of the green, then the tees are moved back, and vice versa. If you just pick a random spot on the tee box, there is no telling how long a course you are actually playing. the decision you noted says "... if there was evidence as to where the tee-markers were intended to be and the competitors determined the teeing ground from such evidence and played from within such teeing ground." The _teeing ground_ is not the entire tee box area of any golf course I ever played (see the Definition in the rule book). The margins of the _teeing ground_ are determined by the tee markers, and without any point of reference there is no way to define the _teeing ground_.

You also cannot truly play a proper round when one of the features which defines the course is missing. Look at the first rule. Rule 1-1 states that


> The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club *from the teeing ground* into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes in accordance with the Rules.


You cannot have a _teeing ground_ without tee markers. Don't confuse this with just playing a round with your buddies. You do what you like in that case. Just be aware that you can't play a true round of golf without a properly marked course.

BTW, my course has the tee markers out.... they're just under a foot of snow at the moment.


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## gatonet

If You Are Starting Off the First Tee. Should'nt the Very First Group Out Notify the Starter That The Markers Are Missing?
Then The Ranger Would Have Someone Go Ahead and Be Sure the Rest Are in Place.


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## stevel1017

some courses remove the markers during the winter season. My course moves them to the front of the teeing area


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## Fourputt

gatonet said:


> If You Are Starting Off the First Tee. Should'nt the Very First Group Out Notify the Starter That The Markers Are Missing?
> Then The Ranger Would Have Someone Go Ahead and Be Sure the Rest Are in Place.


Like Steve said, apparently Bob's course has not put out the tee markers yet for the new season. My course just put them out on Monday, because that was the start of our handicap season. If you were playing a tournament round and came to a hole where the tee markers were missing, then you would have a problem that must be resolved by the competition committee. That is what the decision that Bob cited was aimed at (D 11-4b/3). 

When the entire course has not been set up, then no "official" rounds should be played. I know that my Men's club would not allow me to return a score for handicap if I played the course with no tee markers. The same would be true if all of the tee markers were set up as temporary tees, or if the course was playing to temporary greens.


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## broken tee

Let me be the know it all for a moment. Rule 11-1 basically defines the teeing ground, but mentions nothing about markers. if I remember correctly 11-2 basically mentions markers but defines the procedure should a player move the marker because it is considered a fixed object defing the teeing ground. Rule 1,Playing the game, states a starting point and all holes must be played in sequence for 18 holes. Every course that Ive played has a yardage marker from the center of the teeing ground the distance to the center of the green. I say this as a friend/prodigy Rick, prove to me that markers have to be placed to submit a score for a handicap. From what I understand is the rules commitee is established for competition. This is your fault for making me interested in the rules you know:thumbsup: I willing to take the chance and be dumped on


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Let me be the know it all for a moment. Rule 11-1 basically defines the teeing ground, but mentions nothing about markers. if I remember correctly 11-2 basically mentions markers but defines the procedure should a player move the marker because it is considered a fixed object defing the teeing ground. Rule 1,Playing the game, states a starting point and all holes must be played in sequence for 18 holes. Every course that Ive played has a yardage marker from the center of the teeing ground the distance to the center of the green. I say this as a friend/prodigy Rick, prove to me that markers have to be placed to submit a score for a handicap. From what I understand is the rules commitee is established for competition. This is your fault for making me interested in the rules you know:thumbsup: I willing to take the chance and be dumped on


Don't forget to read the Definitions. They are as important as the Rules and the Decisions. In many cases you cannot correctly interpret a Rule or Decision if you don't know how the terms or phrases are defined in the Rules. That is why the Definitions section comes before the Rules section in the rule book. 

The _teeing ground_ is defined as:



> *Teeing Ground*
> The "teeing ground" is the starting place for the hole to be played. It is a rectangular area two club-lengths in depth, the front and the sides of which are defined by the outside limits of two tee-markers. A ball is outside the teeing ground when all of it lies outside the teeing ground.


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## broken tee

I conceed that the definition give a more exact discription of the teeing ground.You still have not answered the question to me sens'e. show where the rules or definition states that an unmarked teeing ground is invalid for a handicap score of a player. you wounded me on the last one but I'm not dead yet:laugh:


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## Fourputt

It doesn't have to be written down to be true. Sometimes you have to infer from what IS written. A golf course is a finite entity. Each hole has a beginning and an end. The beginning is the teeing ground. The end is the hole. In between anything can happen, but if you played from an undefined starting point, then you can't possibly have played the hole as required by Rule 1-1.

In this case you haven't played the course, because the course isn't defined due to the lack of any marked teeing ground. To me it's the same as if you played 18 holes but never holed out. You simply haven't played the golf course because the committee has failed to create a course as defined in the rules. If your club or association allows you to return such scores for handicap then I can't argue against it. I can only say that it's wrong, but I haven't any authority to override them. 

In the end, you do as you wish. It certainly isn't a major faux pas, but it is still contrary to the rules.


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## broken tee

Okay I get your point, I enjoyed it. Looking forward to the next round:thumbsup:


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## broken tee

*This is true but is rule 11 the only one*

Last weekend during a round a member of our foursome tried to say the ball was played forward of the tee markers. Only he saw an error and the discussion was what has to be in the teeing area, he stated only the ball, the definition does state only the ball is this correct or the intent


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## stevel1017

if I understand your question, you are allowed to stand outside the teeing area, the ball must be in the legal defined teeing area


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## 373

stevel1017 said:


> if I understand your question, you are allowed to stand outside the teeing area, the ball must be in the legal defined teeing area


That has always been my understanding.


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## gatonet

You Can Place Your TEE Anywhere inside the Tee Markers as far back as you like. You just cannot place your Tee in front of, or outside of, the markers.


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## stevel1017

gatonet said:


> You Can Place Your TEE Anywhere inside the Tee Markers as far back as you like. .


Hmmmm, This is how I learned it. You get 2 club lengths back from the front of the tee markers, this defines the teeing ground


Definition: Definitions from the Official Rules of Golf appear courtesy of the USGA.
Teeing Ground: The "teeing ground" is the starting place for the hole to be played. It is a rectangular area two club-lengths in depth, the front and the sides of which are defined by the outside limits of two tee-markers. A ball is outside the teeing ground when all of it lies outside the teeing ground.


source : http://golf.about.com/cs/rulesofgolf/g/rules_teeinggro.htm


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## Fourputt

gatonet said:


> You Can Place Your TEE Anywhere inside the Tee Markers as far back as you like. You just cannot place your Tee in front of, or outside of, the markers.


No, this is wrong. This is another case were you must read the definitions in the Rules of Golf in order to apply the rules themselves.



> *Teeing Ground*
> The "teeing ground" is the starting place for the hole to be played. It is a rectangular area two club-lengths in depth, the front and the sides of which are defined by the outside limits of two tee-markers. A ball is outside the teeing ground when all of it lies outside the teeing ground.


There is no limit to how wide the teeing ground can be, but it is always just 2 clublengths deep, measured from a line drawn across the front edge of the tee markers.


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## broken tee

I thought you were in the Bahamas checking on your builder


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> I thought you were in the Bahamas checking on your builder


I leave at 1 AM Sunday, and I get back Wednesday night.


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## FrogsHair

*Rules Question*

A few years ago there was golfer who was DQ'd because a second person inside the ropes with him handled a golf club who was not his caddy. Something about you can't use two caddies in the same tournament. Now what about a player in a tournament who allows a different caddy other than his own for that tournament to clean his ball while on the putting green. What's the difference? Just courios.........:dunno:


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## 373

A question crossed my mind this afternoon while watching the Masters. After marking his ball, Phil tossed it quite a long way across the green to his caddy. What if Bones had dropped the ball and it had rolled into the water hazard just a couple steps to his right? Would that actually fall under the rule about a ball unfit for play, (because it's at the bottom of a lake), in which case Phil could replace it without penalty? It doesn't seem like the perfect resolution, but I can't think of any other scenario.


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## broken tee

FrogsHair said:


> A few years ago there was golfer who was DQ'd because a second person inside the ropes with him handled a golf club who was not his caddy. Something about you can't use two caddies in the same tournament. Now what about a player in a tournament who allows a different caddy other than his own for that tournament to clean his ball while on the putting green. What's the difference? Just courios.........:dunno:


I think they imposed rule 6-4, but the way I understood the rule is corrective action should take place if not then dis-qualification. ball cleaning...just a courtesy


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## Fourputt

FrogsHair said:


> A few years ago there was golfer who was DQ'd because a second person inside the ropes with him handled a golf club who was not his caddy. Something about you can't use two caddies in the same tournament. Now what about a player in a tournament who allows a different caddy other than his own for that tournament to clean his ball while on the putting green. What's the difference? Just courios.........:dunno:


Cleaning the ball is not specifically a caddie's duty. Once the ball is lifted, it is out of play and anyone can clean it. The definition of Caddie:



> Caddie
> A "caddie" is one who assists the player in accordance with the Rules, which may include carrying or handling the player's clubs during play.


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## Fourputt

DennisM said:


> A question crossed my mind this afternoon while watching the Masters. After marking his ball, Phil tossed it quite a long way across the green to his caddy. What if Bones had dropped the ball and it had rolled into the water hazard just a couple steps to his right? Would that actually fall under the rule about a ball unfit for play, (because it's at the bottom of a lake), in which case Phil could replace it without penalty? It doesn't seem like the perfect resolution, but I can't think of any other scenario.


Bones would have to go swimming (it happened several years ago with another player, and the caddie did go swimming). If Phil was forced to substitute a different ball, it would be a breach of Rule 16-1b, which does not allow substitution. Phil would incur a 2 stroke penalty. Rule 16-1b says:



> b. Lifting and Cleaning Ball
> 
> A ball on the putting green may be lifted and, if desired, cleaned. The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted, and the ball must be replaced (see Rule 20-1).
> 
> Penalty for Breach of Rule 16-1:
> Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.


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## broken tee

Rick: When I was looking for an answer to Froghair's question I did a search of PGA rule verse USGA rules. Each thread had the state's PGA rule. Skimming the pages I gather that these rules are the operation of the tournament/committee with in the confines of that state. Is this an accurrate assumption?


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## FrogsHair

Thanks for the clarification. It's probably a good thing I am not a rules official. The ball is out of play until it is used again. In the club incident, could not the club be considered out of play until used again? Sounds like the guy who who was DQ'd took it in the shorts as he handed the club to a non caddie, who handed it to his caddie who placed it in the bag. Every time I see a caddie providing a service for a player other than his own, I always think of that player getting DQ'd. I know when I have played courses which require a caddie, this is always a topic of discussion. Thanks again.:thumbsup:


Fourputt said:


> Cleaning the ball is not specifically a caddie's duty. Once the ball is lifted, it is out of play and anyone can clean it. caddies I have used in the past The definition of Caddie:


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## 373

I guess a pro couldn't get away with it, but considering most of them change balls in some sort of rotation every hole or every three holes, I wonder if there's ever been a case when a caddy handed back a ball from the working group that was not the actual ball the pro started the hole with. If I understand it correctly, each pro is obligated to play identical balls down to the number on the ball, also marked in some identical fashion. If a pro tossed his Titelist Pro V1 with two dots under the number to his caddy and had a Titleist Pro V1 with 2 dots under the number returned to him to putt with, how would he even know if the ball had been switched with any of the other 4-5 he might be rotating during that round?


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Rick: When I was looking for an answer to Froghair's question I did a search of PGA rule verse USGA rules. Each thread had the state's PGA rule. Skimming the pages I gather that these rules are the operation of the tournament/committee with in the confines of that state. Is this an accurrate assumption?


What you refer to are the standard conditions for competitions conducted by the particular association. Even my Men's Club has such standard conditions which are in effect for all tournaments unless modified or suspended for a particular event. This sort of standard set of conditions are distributed to the players involved on what is commonly called a "hard card". The PGA Tour has a hard card for specific conditions which apply to all Tour competitions. The card includes the one ball condition, meaning that the player must use the same make and model of ball for the entire round. He can't play a spin ball for downwind holes, then switch to a low trajectory distance ball for holes which play into the wind.



DennisM said:


> I guess a pro couldn't get away with it, but considering most of them change balls in some sort of rotation every hole or every three holes, I wonder if there's ever been a case when a caddy handed back a ball from the working group that was not the actual ball the pro started the hole with. If I understand it correctly, each pro is obligated to play identical balls down to the number on the ball, also marked in some identical fashion. If a pro tossed his Titelist Pro V1 with two dots under the number to his caddy and had a Titleist Pro V1 with 2 dots under the number returned to him to putt with, how would he even know if the ball had been switched with any of the other 4-5 he might be rotating during that round?


I read an article about a PGA Tour event where the one ball condition was suspended in the local rules, which were specific only to that competition. Normally though they would have to play one type of ball from start to finish in each round. Typically a caddie will stock his player's bag with only the one ball to eliminate any possibility of such an error. He will also not take a new ball out of the bag until it's time to replace the current ball, for the same reason. No caddie wants to get sacked for doing something that stupid because he'd play hob trying to get on another bag once he got that rep. 

BTW, the number is not required to be the same. Only the brand, model, and vintage (i.e. he couldn't interchange a 2008 and a 2009 Pro V1x if had been any changes to the ball between seasons. I recall a case of a tournament where a pro accidentally played a ball he was given to try out by the manufacturer. Although the ball conformed to USGA specifications, it was not (yet) on the conforming ball list, and was thus not allowed for competition play. If my memory serves me, he was DQ'ed for the error.

I tried to find a copy of the Tour hard card on the web, but apparently it's deep dark secret, because I couldn't find it anywhere with Google. I found some articles which referenced the Tour CoC, but nothing that showed the actual document.


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## OMRTB

*rule help please*

I was reading somewhere the other week that when of the green you are allowed to center the flag int the hole before you chip or putt on. I thought that you were not allowed to move the flagstick except to remove it.
Is it right that you can center it, but not move it towards you to help you. I couldn't actually find anything in the rules about this except the "definition of the flag" which doesn't really clarify this point.
Help anyone?


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## Fourputt

OMRTB said:


> I was reading somewhere the other week that when of the green you are allowed to center the flag int the hole before you chip or putt on. I thought that you were not allowed to move the flagstick except to remove it.
> Is it right that you can center it, but not move it towards you to help you. I couldn't actually find anything in the rules about this except the "definition of the flag" which doesn't really clarify this point.
> Help anyone?


Yes, you can center it in the hole, but you cannot deliberately set it so that it leans off center. You may leave it as it is if you like the lean of the flagstick, or you may center it, or you may have it tended or removed.


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## Iceman778

Rules keep you from being penalized for ignorance


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> What you refer to are the standard conditions for competitions conducted by the particular association. Even my Men's Club has such standard conditions which are in effect for all tournaments unless modified or suspended for a particular event. This sort of standard set of conditions are distributed to the players involved on what is commonly called a "hard card". The PGA Tour has a hard card for specific conditions which apply to all Tour competitions. The card includes the one ball condition, meaning that the player must use the same make and model of ball for the entire round. He can't play a spin ball for downwind holes, then switch to a low trajectory distance ball for holes which play into the wind.
> 
> 
> 
> I read an article about a PGA Tour event where the one ball condition was suspended in the local rules, which were specific only to that competition. Normally though they would have to play one type of ball from start to finish in each round. Typically a caddie will stock his player's bag with only the one ball to eliminate any possibility of such an error. He will also not take a new ball out of the bag until it's time to replace the current ball, for the same reason. No caddie wants to get sacked for doing something that stupid because he'd play hob trying to get on another bag once he got that rep.
> 
> BTW, the number is not required to be the same. Only the brand, model, and vintage (i.e. he couldn't interchange a 2008 and a 2009 Pro V1x if had been any changes to the ball between seasons. I recall a case of a tournament where a pro accidentally played a ball he was given to try out by the manufacturer. Although the ball conformed to USGA specifications, it was not (yet) on the conforming ball list, and was thus not allowed for competition play. If my memory serves me, he was DQ'ed for the error.
> 
> I tried to find a copy of the Tour hard card on the web, but apparently it's deep dark secret, because I couldn't find it anywhere with Google. I found some articles which referenced the Tour CoC, but nothing that showed the actual document.


Was it JP Hayse by chance?


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Was it JP Hayes by chance?


I don't remember. That name doesn't seem to bring up any connection though. I think it was a bigger name player, but that's just association, not necessarily a fact. :dunno:


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## Fourputt

Got a rules question for ya.

A player in a stroke play competition hits his tee shot just into the edge of a lateral water hazard. The ball lies on dry ground in the hazard, 2 inches from a concrete cart path (immovable obstruction) which is outside of the water hazard. If he plays the ball as it lies he will hit the concrete cart path with his club. What are the player's options?


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## Cajun

Re-tee the ball and take a stroke penalty or move the ball back toward the tee box far enough to get a club length from the cart path and clear the water, also costing a stroke.

Just a guess though, I don't know for sure. I'd look it up, but me and the Mrs. are heading out to hear some blues tonight.  I'll see if I can figure it out when I get back and post my retraction.


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## Cajun

Ok, she said it was going to be 20 minutes before she's ready so here goes....

I think rule 26-1 can be applied here. So re-tee (1 stroke penalty), hit from the drop zone (1 stroke penalty), and I don't think 26-1c applies to the situation you described, please correct me if I'm wrong. 

26-1. Relief for Ball in Water Hazard
It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck toward a water hazard is in the hazard. In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.
If a ball is in a water hazard or if it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in a water hazard (whether the ball lies in water or not), the player may 
under penalty of one stroke:
a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped; or
c. As additional options available only if the ball last crossed the margin of a lateral water hazard, drop a ball outside the water hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or (ii) a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole. 
When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball.


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## FrogsHair

The ball as far as I know does not have to be wet to be considered in a water hazard. We have dry washes out here that are considered water hazards. It's a lateral hazard, so can be treated as such. The cart path obstruction can either be treated as a unplayable lie, or the golfer at his own risk can hit the ball as it lies. I have seen pros hit the ball off the concrete cart path because the nearest point of relief left an even worse shot condition. So, I am guessing that unless the golfer hits the ball as it lies, penalty strokes are going to be involved along with the nearest point of relief, not nearer to the hole. Me personally, If I can get a club on the ball, and advance it, I am hitting the ball. My clubs carry a rock solid, unconditional life time warranty, including S&H. If I bend/break a club for any reason, I will have a replacement in 3-5 working days. Obviously preventing a personal injury comes into play when hitting off, or possibly into something solid. You just take what the lie at hand gives you.


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## broken tee

I suggest Decision 24-2b/21 has the answer (see note one) he/she must play it as it lies


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## Fourputt

I think all possibilities have been hit now. Because the ball lies in a hazard, there is no relief from an obstruction, even though none of the obstruction is in the hazard. Note 1 in rule 24-2b says:



> *Note 1:* If a ball is in a water hazard (including a lateral water hazard), *the player may not take relief from interference by an immovable obstruction*. The player must play the ball as it lies or proceed under Rule 26-1.


I was working as a rules official at the CGA Two Man Team Championship last week and this situation came up. The Chief Rules Official made a wrong decision and gave a player relief when it wasn't allowed. His ruling stood because the RO's decision is final, but after he discovered his mistake he sought out the player and corrected himself so that the player would not make that mistake if it happened again sometime.

There is a saying among the Rules Official community... Two things are certain for an on course RO... he either has made a bad ruling, or he will do so in the future.


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## FrogsHair

My rules question. Yesterday a guy (who's name I forget) hit a ball from the actual ocean beach sand, back up to the regular playing turf at Pebble Beach. Is the actual beach considered a hazard, and if so how was his caddy, and bag allowed to accompany him on to the beach? At one point his bag was sitting on the sand. Can the golfer ground his club on this pacific ocean beach? I know it's legal to hit from there, just wondering which rule(s) apply. Could a caddy, and the bag enter into the same bunker with the pro on the normal playing area? :dunno:


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## Fourputt

FrogsHair said:


> My rules question. Yesterday a guy (who's name I forget) hit a ball from the actual ocean beach sand, back up to the regular playing turf at Pebble Beach. Is the actual beach considered a hazard, and if so how was his caddy, and bag allowed to accompany him on to the beach? At one point his bag was sitting on the sand. Can the golfer ground his club on this pacific ocean beach? I know it's legal to hit from there, just wondering which rule(s) apply. Could a caddy, and the bag enter into the same bunker with the pro on the normal playing area? :dunno:


I'm fairly certain that anything over the cliff is in the hazard. Most of it is marked as lateral water hazard. And yes he can play from the beach, he can take extra clubs with him (or his entire bag) and put them down in the hazard as long as nothing is done that would constitute testing the hazard. That would apply to a bunker too. Finally no, he cannot ground his club in the hazard, nor can he move any loose impediments. All of this is covered in Rule 13-4.


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## broken tee

*Ball marker interferes*

My question is how to properly mark your ball when the the ball marker interferes with another's line. I'm some what certain that there is a procedure.


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## stevel1017

place your marker behind the ball, then using your putter, aligning it with a point of reference, move the marker out of the line, one, putter heads length. If not enough use the putter head and repeat moving the marker. after the putt, reverse your steps to putt from the proper place


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## gatonet

While we're on the subject of Sand, Phil almost called himself for "kicking" the sand after his bunker shot. Exactly why, and how does this rule apply?
Thanks Rick!


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## broken tee

stevel1017 said:


> place your marker behind the ball, then using your putter, aligning it with a point of reference, move the marker out of the line, one, putter heads length. If not enough use the putter head and repeat moving the marker. after the putt, reverse your steps to putt from the proper place


Thanks Steve,if we were to have this discussion with our good friend Rick he would reply with "under rule "20-1" to lift the ball then moving the marker under The rule, so far, I've found that, but the rule doesn't specifty what club head or how many times. this was brought up at a girls golf clinic that my granddaughter is in and both the head pro and assistant are or were at odds that it doesn't have to be the putter nor it there a distance restriction in the use of the club head, is there a decision on this or is this just hair splitting ? which is my thinking.


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Thanks Steve,if we were to have this discussion with our good friend Rick he would reply with "under rule "20-1" to lift the ball then moving the marker under The rule, so far, I've found that, but the rule doesn't specifty what club head or how many times. this was brought up at a girls golf clinic that my granddaughter is in and both the head pro and assistant are or were at odds that it doesn't have to be the putter nor it there a distance restriction in the use of the club head, is there a decision on this or is this just hair splitting ? which is my thinking.


The rule only requires that when you finally play your stroke, the ball has been replaced in the same spot where it was lifted from. How you get there is not part of the rules. There are some recommendations such as for what to use as a marker, and some things which are not acceptable, but it is the players responsibility to play his stroke from the right place.


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## Fourputt

gatonet said:


> While we're on the subject of Sand, Phil almost called himself for "kicking" the sand after his bunker shot. Exactly why, and how does this rule apply?
> Thanks Rick!


First, Rule 13-4 only applies when the player's ball lies in or touches the bunker in question. Once he has played his shot and the ball is no longer in the bunker, then he can kick, touch, even taste if he so desires. 

If he plays his shot and fails to get out of the bunker, then there are prohibitions. He still may not do anything to test the surface, but he MAY rake the spot where he has walked, or created a crater with his stroke, *as long as does not rake anything in his line of play from the ball's new location*. The rules assume that he won't learn anything new by raking that he didn't already learn from playing his shot.


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## FrogsHair

What about this scenario, and please I am not trying to be picky here. He hits the ball out of the bunker, and ball comes to rest in a second bunker nearer the green. In other words he is still in (another) a bunker. Does anything change?


Fourputt said:


> First, Rule 13-4 only applies when the player's ball lies in or touches the bunker in question. Once he has played his shot and the ball is no longer in the bunker, then he can kick, touch, even taste if he so desires.
> 
> If he plays his shot and fails to get out of the bunker, then there are prohibitions. He still may not do anything to test the surface, but he MAY rake the spot where he has walked, or created a crater with his stroke, *as long as does not rake anything in his line of play from the ball's new location*. The rules assume that he won't learn anything new by raking that he didn't already learn from playing his shot.


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## Fourputt

FrogsHair said:


> What about this scenario, and please I am not trying to be picky here. He hits the ball out of the bunker, and ball comes to rest in a second bunker nearer the green. In other words he is still in (another) a bunker. Does anything change?


Nope. Since he is no longer in that bunker, Rule 13-4 does not apply to it. It does apply to the new bunker.


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## broken tee

*local rule or tradition*

I'm playing nine holes this afternoon and requested playing the back nine and asked the starter if it's possiable.He said; "depends on how many are making the turn and you know they have priorty." I understand, but is there a rule or just good customer service. This has never bothered me letting someone slip in to play. I've never asked why and in getting beat up by Rick on the rules now my curousity has gotten the best of me.


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## FrogsHair

As I understand it, the people on, or coming off the 9th tee have priority on #10's tee box. The exception might be a group that took a time out at the 19th hole. There is also a (????) rule that if you are playing as a single, you have no rights as far as playing through, or jumping in front of a group. In other words they don't have to let a single play through if they don't want to, and a single has to let another match play through if they want to. I am pretty sure that's an old "singles" rule that no longer has any teeth. Our group always lets a single play through, or any faster players for the matter.

Golf Singles Playing Through - Single Players and Priority on the Course


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> I'm playing nine holes this afternoon and requested playing the back nine and asked the starter if it's possiable.He said; "depends on how many are making the turn and you know they have priorty." I understand, but is there a rule or just good customer service. This has never bothered me letting someone slip in to play. I've never asked why and in getting beat up by Rick on the rules now my curousity has gotten the best of me.


If you came to my window when I'm working, I'd give you the same answer. It certainly has nothing to do with the rules of golf, but on any public, daily fee course I've ever played, 18 hole players always take precedence over 9 hole players, simply because they are paying more to play. Where I work, we do NOT "squeeze" 9 hole players between 18 hole groups on the back 9 just to make a few extra bucks. If there is a gap because a front 9 time was not used, then I might consider it at my own discretion, but but I won't do so unless there is still a gap between those two groups at the turn (I can see most of the 9th fairway from my booth, so I can make those decisions on a case by case basis. If I can see a group on the 9th fairway, then I won't send anyone off 10, no matter how much they whine about it.). I will not put a 9 hole group into a small space just because an 18 hole group is a couple of minutes slow making the turn. Ultimately, all that does is jam up the back 9. 

The 18 hole group paid for their place on the course, and as long as they are reasonably close to the accepted pace, I won't slip a group in ahead of them on the 10th tee.


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## Fourputt

FrogsHair said:


> As I understand it, the people on, or coming off the 9th tee have priority on #10's tee box. The exception might be a group that took a time out at the 19th hole. There is also a (????) rule that if you are playing as a single, you have no rights as far as playing through, or jumping in front of a group. In other words they don't have to let a single play through if they don't want to, and a single has to let another match play through if they want to. I am pretty sure that's an old "singles" rule that no longer has any teeth. Our group always lets a single play through, or any faster players for the matter.
> 
> Golf Singles Playing Through - Single Players and Priority on the Course


Actually it was until just recently (2000 or 2004?) that the rules did say that a single had no standing. That is no longer the case. Proper etiquette states that a larger group should always let a smaller or faster group play through if there is space open in front of them on the course. *If the course is full and there are no gaps, then they have no such obligation, because that just slows the general pace of play on the whole course.* This is not just supposition, but observed fact from sitting in the starter's booth for the last 4 years and timing groups coming around the turn. A single playing through multiple groups on a full course just creates a rolling log jam.

The single does NOT have the right to play through group after group on a full course just because he is faster. If he happens to be playing alone because there was nobody else to pair him with for a scheduled tee time on an otherwise busy day, then he just has to accept his fate. :dunno:


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## Surtees

Sometime I have tee off on the 3rd when just playing nine because that is where the gap is. Rules are rules but both the 9 hole player and the 18 hole player needs some common sense too.


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## broken tee

Surtees said:


> Sometime I have tee off on the 3rd when just playing nine because that is where the gap is. Rules are rules but both the 9 hole player and the 18 hole player needs some common sense too.


if you by-pass 2 holes that means you play 7 holes or do you use different math


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## Surtees

still play 9 but sometimes I'll play 3 through 11.


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## Fourputt

Surtees said:


> still play 9 but sometimes I'll play 3 through 11.


That's a big difference from where I play. You simply don't have that option. You can't start in the middle of a side at a typical public course around here. You start on 1 or you start on 10, and the times you can start on 10 are very limited. My father-in-law's 9 hole semi-private course you can skip to #3 or #6 to start if the 1st tee is backed up, then just play around to wherever you want to quit. The fee for a non member is an all day fee, so you can play from sunup to sundown for the one price. It's a rural course which doesn't get heavy play most days. 

My home course is simply too busy to allow such creativity. :dunno:


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## broken tee

That answers my question its good customer service. Rick you should have never mentioned starter's booth, it brought back images of the video clip I think it was torre pines. "Will the Aussie on number 3 please leave the geese alone." " will the guy in the booth help me get my clubs back I thoght they were trained to carry clubs."


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## FrogsHair

During summer afternoons you can do this at my home course. It's not that busy due to the heat. Yesterday I started on 1, skipped 2 & 3, and played 4-18 with no problems with pace of play. Once I was done with 18, I went and played 2 & 3. I had already let the course marshal know what I was doing. Actually I played 2-9 again which amounted to 26 holes for the day. If you play fast, hit decent, quickly found shots, you can play a hole in under 10 minutes, using a cart. The only guy I saw on my third 9 was a guy training for his "Iron Man" competition. He had a trolley. After hitting the ball he would jog to his ball while pushing his trolley. Once at his ball, he'd towel off, and drink something, and do it all over again. This in triple digit heat. Made me tired just watching him. 


Surtees said:


> still play 9 but sometimes I'll play 3 through 11.


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## FrogsHair

Here's the situation. The ball comes to rest in a drainage ditch that "sometimes" during a heavy rain fall has water it. Most of the time (90%) it is dry, although normal drainage water is running in storm drains below the dry surface of the channel. It is a natural drainage channel comprised of rock, gravel, weeds, and sporadic grass. It is pretty easy to hit a ball out of this ditch area since it is dry. The sometimes dry area of the ditch is "NOT" marked as a water hazard. Neither is the wet area of the same ditch.

Here's my question. Is this unmarked, dry area of the drainage ditch still considered a water hazard? If so, if the golfer were to ground their club in this dry ditch, would they not incur a penalty? I know the EPA recognizes any drainage ditch wet, or dry, in the USA as an American Water Way. Just wondering what USGA rules people think about it.


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## broken tee

That is a good question. with out looking in the rules my guess is if it is not staked or the committee has determined that natural drainage is a hazard then you play it as a hazard. it's Nevada's fault for the wind we have here stop breaking it... would you guys

The USGA website has changed their format so if I listened correctly natural drainage is considered a water hazard.


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## Fourputt

First the definition for water hazard from the Rules of Golf:



> Water Hazard
> A "water hazard" is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, *surface drainage ditch* or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature on the course . All ground and water within the margin of a water hazard are part of the water hazard.
> 
> When the margin of a water hazard is defined by stakes, the stakes are inside the water hazard, and the margin of the hazard is defined by the nearest outside points of the stakes at ground level. When both stakes and lines are used to indicate a water hazard, the stakes identify the hazard and the lines define the hazard margin. When the margin of a water hazard is defined by a line on the ground, the line itself is in the water hazard. The margin of a water hazard extends vertically upwards and downwards.
> 
> A ball is in a water hazard when it lies in or any part of it touches the water hazard.
> 
> Stakes used to define the margin of or identify a water hazard are obstructions.


Then a decision which covers this issue. Decision 26/3:



> 26/3 Unmarked Water Hazard
> 
> Q. An unmarked ditch on the left of a hole is in bounds, but the left-hand margin is out of bounds. Accordingly, it is impossible to drop behind the water hazard under Rule 26-1b. A player's ball comes to rest in the ditch. Is the player restricted to playing the ball as it lies or proceeding under Rule 26-1a?
> 
> A. It is the responsibility of the Committee to define accurately the margins of water hazards and lateral water hazards — see Rule 33-2a. However, if the Committee has not done so, the ditch is, by definition, a lateral water hazard and the player should be permitted to proceed under Rule 26-1c(i).


Also Decision 26/2:



> 26/2 Ball Within Natural Margin of Water Hazard But Outside Stakes Defining Margin
> 
> Q. Stakes defining the margin of a water hazard were improperly installed. As a result, an area which clearly was part of the water hazard was outside the stakes and, thus, technically was outside the hazard. A player's ball came to rest in water in this area. The player claimed that, in view of the alignment of the stakes, his ball was in casual water through the green. Was the claim valid?
> 
> A. No. The Committee erred in not properly defining the margin of the hazard as required by Rule 33-2a, but a player is not entitled to take advantage of such an error. Since it was clear that the place where the player's ball lay was within the natural boundaries of the water hazard, the claim should not be upheld.



Is this the answer you were looking for?


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## FrogsHair

Yep, pretty much covers it. The question came up between two guys I was golfing with yesterday. One of them hit a ball into an unmarked, dry drainage ditch. The golfer grounded his club. Since these guys were playing $2 skins, the other golfer claimed foul and told the other guy he had to add a penalty stroke. The guy in the hazard said he did not because the it was not marked as a hazard, plus it could not be a water hazard because it was dry. Now I am minding my own business during their discussion since I was not part of their skins match. But since I was a third party with no axe to grind, I was asked my unbiased opinion. I told them that IMHO it was still a lateral water hazard even though it was unmarked and dry. One guy loved me, the other guy wanted to wrap a driver around my neck. I bought us all a beverage at the turn.... 

One other question; On 26-3. would it be the same if the unmarked hazard was on the right side of the hole?


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## FrogsHair

Actually it is California's/Arizona's fault. Like Utah we are just caught in the middle. Then again my California relatives say Nevada takes the wind from California because we "suck". Never did like that clan of relatives.....:laugh:


broken tee said:


> That is a good question. with out looking in the rules my guess is if it is not staked or the committee has determined that natural drainage is a hazard then you play it as a hazard. it's Nevada's fault for the wind we have here stop breaking it... would you guys
> 
> The USGA website has changed their format so if I listened correctly natural drainage is considered a water hazard.


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## stevel1017

frog, here is how i see it
not marked, and dry, it is considered part of the course and play it as it lies, if it is unplayable, follow the rules under an unplayable lie
if the same unmarked ditch has water in it, then it should be considered casual water and take appropriate relief, unless there is a local rule covering this


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## Fourputt

stevel1017 said:


> frog, here is how i see it
> not marked, and dry, it is considered part of the course and play it as it lies, if it is unplayable, follow the rules under an unplayable lie
> if the same unmarked ditch has water in it, then it should be considered casual water and take appropriate relief, unless there is a local rule covering this



When dry you might be able to justify your assumption, but when there is water in it, then since it meets the definition of a water hazard, it cannot be casual water. Regardless of whether it is marked or not, if your ball lies in water in what is clearly a watercourse, then it lies in a water hazard.


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## broken tee

FrogsHair said:


> Actually it is California's/Arizona's fault. Like Utah we are just caught in the middle. Then again my California relatives say Nevada takes the wind from California because we "suck". Never did like that clan of relatives.....:laugh:


Good comeback...Looking at Rick's, Steve's and my answer this looks like a committee issue, when the course I play at drains the lateral water hazards they pull the markers and the rule is no grounding of the club and in some cases depending on how hard the bottom of the ponds are its just best to take the penalty stroke.

I'm still a little vague on the definition of natural drainage by the USGA, Rick has the training for refereeing so I'd rely on his best jugement


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Good comeback...Looking at Rick's, Steve's and my answer this looks like a committee issue, when the course I play at drains the lateral water hazards they pull the markers and the rule is no grounding of the club and in some cases depending on how hard the bottom of the ponds are its just best to take the penalty stroke.
> 
> *I'm still a little vague on the definition of natural drainage by the USGA,* Rick has the training for refereeing so I'd rely on his best jugement


Basically it means that it is a watercourse which would serve as a runoff ditch when it rains. It only needs to have water in it once or twice a year to qualify. Generally you should be able to identify it as such... meaning that it should be fairly obvious what its purpose is. I don't understand why your course would pull the stakes then still call it a hazard though... you need the stakes to identify the margin... without them there would often be a question when your ball lies near the edge as to whether you were actually in the hazard or not.


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## FrogsHair

I played a course earlier this week where the issue of "burrowing animals" would come into play on most of the fairways. I was fortunate enough to not lose a ball in one of these critters' holes, but I am of the opinion that if I did, I would treat the issue the same as casual water, by dropping a ball, one club length, away from the problem, not nearer the green, with no penalty stroke. Not real sure if that is 100% correct, so I will give this rules issue to our resident rules expert "Four Putt" .......


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## 373

Burrowing animals are one thing we don't have on the courses around Miami. We have exotic birds, not so exotic birds like eagles and hawks, lots of gators in the lakes and canals, the odd otter, some small garden snakes and lots of different turtles and fish. 

In various places like near Merritt Island, where the Savannahs Country Club wraps around a wildlife preserve, there is the occasional bear or deer. In other localized areas, I've seen raccoons, possums and porcupines.

Something I saw for the first time recently was a beautiful gray fox running around on the course at Calusa, a course in a very densely populated housing area. The drink cart pulled up just as we saw it and I pointed it out to the girl on the cart. She told me the fox family had been there for years, living in a dense group of trees and bushes between the 7th and 8th fairways. In the 30 years I've played that course, it's the first time I've seen the foxes there.


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## broken tee

Under rule 25-1 burrows are considered abnormal ground conditions so you can drop one club length and not near to the hole.


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## 373

A loose question for all of us...

I'll admit that in casual play, if I'm affected by GIR or some situation from which I get a free drop, I'll just move the ball a few inches or an estimated 3' or so for relief and take my drop. 

By the same token, if I incur a penalty that requires me to move my ball, or take a drop like a lost ball might, I move the ball a couple feet away from the fence to estimate my relief or I'll drop out on the hole instead of going back to the tee. I take my penalty strokes, but I try to save time because 90% of the time, there are people behind us waiting to get through their 5 hour round, just like us.

On an admittedly unfair note, we save our wrists and elbows by not hitting the ball when it is among tree roots, just moving the ball to an area where we can assure ourselves there are no roots to tear ourselves up. Yes, it's an unplayable lie, but we only take strokes when the tree roots are in the rough. There are some trees around here with root systems that run far from the tree and sometimes into the edges of the fairway. If your ball was in the fairway, would you feel tou deserved a penalty stroke for an unplayable lie? There's no local rule on the card to say it's a free drop.

If I was playing in a tournament, obviously I would do differently, but with people usually waiting behind us and a stacked up golf course, I don't hold up the course by performing the prescribed ritual of measuring and extended arm drop.

Am I the only one who does this? And don't misunderstand, I'm certainly not critical of the rules, I'm just trying to speed up play.


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## 373

Go back to animal burrows for a minute... Don't you have to determine your ball actually went into the borrow before you get free relief? I think you get free relief for your stance, but not free relief if you only suspect your ball went into the burrow. Wouldn't that be a simple lost ball situation?


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## stevel1017

DennisM said:


> Go back to animal burrows for a minute... Don't you have to determine your ball actually went into the borrow before you get free relief? I think you get free relief for your stance, but not free relief if you only suspect your ball went into the burrow. Wouldn't that be a simple lost ball situation?


it must be "reasonable assumption" that the ball went into the hole before you get free relief


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## 373

OK, but for the sake of discussion, how to you determine the definition of "reasonable"?

If someone saw the ball go into the animal hole, would an official take their word for it. Instant replay? What? Seems a bit subjective and I always thought that was what we tried to avoid.


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## stevel1017

i have been googling a lot about this, and that seems to be the problem, how do you define reasonable?


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## stevel1017

For comparison, here is the explanation of "reasonable evidence" as defined by Decision 26-1/1 in the 2006-2007 USGA Book of Decisions on the Rules of Golf: 

The term reasonable evidence in Rule 26-1 is purposely and necessarily broad so as to permit sensible judgments to be reached on the basis of all the relevant circumstances of particular cases. As applied in this context, a player may not deem his ball lost in a water hazard simply because he thinks the ball may be in the hazard. The evidence must be preponderantly in favor of its being in the hazard. Otherwise, the ball must be considered lost outside the hazard and the player must proceed under Rule 27-1. Physical conditions in the area have a great deal to do with it. For example, if a water hazard is surrounded by a fairway on which a ball could hardly be lost, the existence of reasonable evidence that the ball is in the hazard would be more likely than if there was deep rough in the area. Observing a ball splash in a water hazard would not necessarily provide reasonable evidence as splashing balls sometimes skip out of hazards. It would depend on all the circumstances.
Ultimately, it is of course a group decision. If the group is unable to settle the matter and an official is available, you can present the evidence to the official for a ruling.


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## broken tee

Since I'm an expert coming up with wrong answers, if the ball is on abnormal ground even the mound you should get relief, the exception is the bunker or if a dog just dug a hole(25-1) it has to be holes that animals use for their home or protection (definition). I think that any one of us would say that "reasonable" is what is fair judgement by all. General play might be another story even though there is a rule that you can't forgo the rules each player must abide by the rules. tradition for the general player does let things slide to keep play moving, but in tourney play like you said Dennis how we play is strictly by the book.


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## 373

Personally, I'm more concerned with relief from the summer heat than I am a burrowing animal. That burrowing animal should be more worried that I might crawl into his burrow seeking some shade.


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## FrogsHair

These were Prairie Dog burrows,and I even seen some golf balls in some of them. It was nothing to see 30+ burrows in a fairway, with a PD some where near each one. Some one hitting the fairway, but unable to locate their ball could rightfully assume their ball was lost in on these burrows if it were no where else to be found. Some of these burrows looked to be 10"+ in diameter. Some where I read (rules?) that one could even use their club(s) to retrieve a ball out of a burrow, and still drop, not nearer the hole, without penalty. 

I got a kick out of watching them as I moved nearer to them. A bunch would be eating, and one or two of them would be standing at attention looking at me. Once I started moving again, the guard PDs would make a noise, and those that were eating would move towards the safety of their burrows. I also understand that these critters are protected, and at the present time cannot be removed from the golf course.


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## Fourputt

DennisM said:


> Go back to animal burrows for a minute... Don't you have to determine your ball actually went into the borrow before you get free relief? I think you get free relief for your stance, but not free relief if you only suspect your ball went into the burrow. Wouldn't that be a simple lost ball situation?


It's a question of fact whether the ball is lost in a burrow or not. It must be known or virtually certain that ball is in the burrow. Lacking that certainty, then the ball is simply lost and Rule 27 is the one you use. 

By the way, to Bob: You get one clublength from the nearest point of relief. When taking free relief under any rule which allows it, you always have to find the NPR before you measure the one clublength. Also note that it is the nearest point of relief, not necessarily the best point of relief. When taking penalty relief under option 3 for an unplayable lie (Rule 28c), you measure 2 clublengths from where the ball lies. There is no NPR for a penalty drop.



FrogsHair said:


> These were Prairie Dog burrows,and I even seen some golf balls in some of them. It was nothing to see 30+ burrows in a fairway, with a PD some where near each one. Some one hitting the fairway, but unable to locate their ball could rightfully assume their ball was lost in on these burrows if it were no where else to be found. Some of these burrows looked to be 10"+ in diameter. Some where I read (rules?) that one could even use their club(s) to retrieve a ball out of a burrow, and still drop, not nearer the hole, without penalty.
> 
> I got a kick out of watching them as I moved nearer to them. A bunch would be eating, and one or two of them would be standing at attention looking at me. Once I started moving again, the guard PDs would make a noise, and those that were eating would move towards the safety of their burrows. I also understand that these critters are protected, and at the present time cannot be removed from the golf course.


We used to have prairie dog problems on my home course, but no longer. They certainly aren't protected around this part of the country. They are destructive pests, and aside from some warped PETA types, we treat them as pests. We have a family of coyotes living just off the course which helps with such issues.


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## Fourputt

DennisM said:


> A loose question for all of us...
> 
> I'll admit that in casual play, if I'm affected by GIR or some situation from which I get a free drop, I'll just move the ball a few inches or an estimated 3' or so for relief and take my drop.
> 
> By the same token, if I incur a penalty that requires me to move my ball, or take a drop like a lost ball might, I move the ball a couple feet away from the fence to estimate my relief or I'll drop out on the hole instead of going back to the tee. I take my penalty strokes, but I try to save time because 90% of the time, there are people behind us waiting to get through their 5 hour round, just like us.
> 
> On an admittedly unfair note, we save our wrists and elbows by not hitting the ball when it is among tree roots, just moving the ball to an area where we can assure ourselves there are no roots to tear ourselves up. Yes, it's an unplayable lie, but we only take strokes when the tree roots are in the rough. There are some trees around here with root systems that run far from the tree and sometimes into the edges of the fairway. If your ball was in the fairway, would you feel tou deserved a penalty stroke for an unplayable lie? There's no local rule on the card to say it's a free drop.
> 
> If I was playing in a tournament, obviously I would do differently, but with people usually waiting behind us and a stacked up golf course, I don't hold up the course by performing the prescribed ritual of measuring and extended arm drop.
> 
> Am I the only one who does this? And don't misunderstand, I'm certainly not critical of the rules, I'm just trying to speed up play.


Hi Dennis... guess you probably know what my answer is going to be.  I play by the rules. When handled right, it's no slower than not playing by the rules. I play a provisional ball when I think that I may have hit a ball into trouble. I know the procedures to follow for all relief and penalty situations, so it takes me no time at all to make a proper drop. I don't always measure everything out because it isn't always necessary. The rules even say that it isn't required. What IS required by the rules is that you must play your next stroke from the correct place. If you can arrive at that by making an intelligent estimate, then that is perfectly allowable. The key is that you are certain. When I have to take relief, whether penalty or free, I usually do so while my companions are playing their shots... it certainly isn't necessary to hold up the course to do so. In most cases it takes about 10 or 15 seconds to do the whole thing, certainly no more than a minute even in a worst case.

As far as roots... yes, if I truly can't play the shot then I take the penalty, no matter where the roots are. Nothing in the rules says you are entitled to a good lie, even in the fairway. In fact the rules don't even recognize the fairway as anything different from the rough... it's all through the green as far as the rules are concerned. Just yesterday my ball was lying in a little spot where some roots had pushed up through the ground on a par 5 hole. I just took my 3W and hit a half swing punch up the fairway. Made it to the 150 marker with that shot, and on the green in regulation from there... all nice and legal. For me that's the only way I know how to play. I don't require it in others, unless there is a wager in place. 

This is just about the only thing in my life that I am truly anal about (except maybe my kitchen knives and cookware, but that's something for a different website  )... Like any game, golf has rules, and I just believe that it's more fun and more rewarding to play by those rules.


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## FrogsHair

I might guess that a few of the local snakes, and other crawling critters might have the same idea.


DennisM said:


> Personally, I'm more concerned with relief from the summer heat than I am a burrowing animal. That burrowing animal should be more worried that I might crawl into his burrow seeking some shade.


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## Fourputt

Try this on for size: St. Andrews Open Quiz


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## broken tee

that was fun! with out looking in the book only got 50%


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## Fourputt

It's a better rules quiz than most I've seen because it actually deals with realistic on course scenarios. Most of the time they are trying to trip you up with obscurity... this one is just a collection of straightforward situations which any of us can run into on the course.


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## stevel1017

83%, not bad, but not perfect


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## 373

I got 83% too, but I was lucky with a couple guesses. The one I thought I would get right, about how long you can wait for a ball on the edge of the hole to fall into the cup, I thought the 40 seconds was too long. You could make an emotional show out of narrowly missing the hole and wait all day for something like that.


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## Fourputt

DennisM said:


> I got 83% too, but I was lucky with a couple guesses. The one I thought I would get right, about how long you can wait for a ball on the edge of the hole to fall into the cup, I thought the 40 seconds was too long. You could make an emotional show out of narrowly missing the hole and wait all day for something like that.


40 seconds IS too long.  You get enough time to walk to the hole plus 10 seconds.


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## 373

That reminds me of something. This came up in a tournament I played in Jamaica back in the 70's. One of the guys finished his round, but instead of signing and turning in his card, he rushed off to the bathroom first. The lady accepting the scores on behalf of the JGA, (Jamaica Golf Association), began to question how long someone had to turn in their card before incurring a penalty or a disqualification because people behind his ground were already in.

How long is long enough?

In the case above, there were enough people still on the golf course that it didn't matter much and when the guy came out of the bathroom, someone simply reminded him to turn in his card, which he hadn't forgotten about anyway. But what if he had been in the last group?


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## 373

Fourputt said:


> This is just about the only thing in my life that I am truly anal about except maybe my kitchen knives and cookware


There is something very disturbing about using the words anal, kitchen knives and cookware in the same sentence. 

Rick, in actuality, I think we are saying the same thing two different ways. It isn't that I'm not intent on playing by the rules, but it's funny how much more intent I've been since a period when I played with a guy who couldn't count. It's not that he just took mulligans from any tee and didn't count anything he didn't like, but he would take mulligans from fairways or bunkers and only count what he liked. The only time he might stop taking mulligans was when he didn't have any more balls in his pockets. If he was taking relief from something, he was just as likely to toss his ball into the fairway instead of anything resembling a correct drop. I've seen him pick up a 5' putt... stuff like that. 

Off the golf course, he's a good guy, but it affected my ability to enjoy playing the game when I played with him and when he withdrew to deal with a new business, my usual partner and I were very happy.

Spend a couple years playing with someone like that and if you have any passion for the game, you'll get a bit more anal about the rules. Just don't mention knives and cookware... please?


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## 373

I would be interesting to do the quiz over, but consider the answers if they were playing match play instead of medal.


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## Fourputt

DennisM said:


> That reminds me of something. This came up in a tournament I played in Jamaica back in the 70's. One of the guys finished his round, but instead of signing and turning in his card, he rushed off to the bathroom first. The lady accepting the scores on behalf of the JGA, (Jamaica Golf Association), began to question how long someone had to turn in their card before incurring a penalty or a disqualification because people behind his ground were already in.
> 
> How long is long enough?
> 
> In the case above, there were enough people still on the golf course that it didn't matter much and when the guy came out of the bathroom, someone simply reminded him to turn in his card, which he hadn't forgotten about anyway. But what if he had been in the last group?


This is something which the committee has to set in the player instructions. When done as per USGA guidelines, it has to be a relatively short period, but no specific time is noted. My partner and I still feel that we were rooked by a clear violation of this policy a couple of years ago. We teamed up for the Foothills Invitational, a tournament run by the pro shop at the course rather than by the Men's Club. The format was a 2 man better ball, and my partner and I were sitting atop the leader board for 2 hours after finishing the 2nd round. There was one group left to post their score, and they had finished 3 groups behind us, some 1½ hours earlier. When they finally turned in their card, the 2 players who had been their markers had left the course. All of a sudden, more than an hour after they finished their round, they return a card that beats us by one stroke. Obviously there is no hard evidence of shenanigans because the only players who could dispute it were long gone, but you just can't help being very suspicious. 

The whole experience just left a bad taste in our mouths. I talked to the pro about the incident during the next week, and "suggested" that they put a tight leash on the time allowed to return scores after the round is finished. They said they would do so, but I didn't play in the tournament this year, so I don't know if they did so or not. I can guarantee that if I do play again, I will talk to them before the tournament and remind them of this.


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## gatonet

Some Say Rules Were Meant To Be Broken.
But When It Comes to Golf, You're Only Hurting Yourself When You Don't Play By the Rules.
Do You Know Your REAL Score?


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## broken tee

The Spirit of the Game


Unlike many sports, golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf.

This says it all Rick, and if I was in the same position that you were I would have raised "HELL"


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## FrogsHair

All golfers are human beings, and not all human beings are 100% honest. I suspect that even a few people who consider themselves "honest individuals" break their own code of honesty every now and then. This is especially true in golf. That's just the way it is, and it will never change for the better. Except when playing sanctioned, and/or for handicap events, I know I have broken a few of the rules of golf when out just horsing around, or playing a practice round. Come to think of it, I don't think I could honestly say I have never broken some obscured, unknown to me, rule when playing in a sanctioned, handicapped event. I just don't know, and of course ignorance of the rules of golf is not a valid excuse.


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## broken tee

frogshair: I don't disagree with you, but if the player wants to win so darn bad and cheats then he or she is not in the spirit of the game. Ignorance does affect us, on occassions. I for one don't carry a rule book like anal Rick:rofl: but he does it the right way of "when in doubt whip it out.":thumbsup:


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## gatonet

Amen! Once again, as Frog has stated, even those of us considered to be honest and forthright have "bent" the rules a touch.
But not knowing the rule you have just broken and flat out cheating are two different topics.
I would like to think that most of us truly into the history if the game will at least try to play by the book.
Picking up a tap in conceeded by your playing partner is just helping to speed up a round on a busy day!
Remember, only you know your "true" score...


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## FrogsHair

Pulled this one off another forum. There has been some heavy rain, or too much irrigation water which has caused water to accumulate in the bunkers. A golfer hits the ball into a bunker with water in it. It's a some what large bunker with enough temporary water in it, that ball cannot be seen or other wise easily found. What's the ruling? Does the "casual water" rule come into play, or does the "lost ball", or already "in a hazard" rules take precedence? 

What if the golfer can see, and recover the ball out of this temporary accumulation of water?


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## broken tee

I'm going to say 25-1 Abnormal ground conditions:
25-1. Abnormal Ground Conditions
a. Interference
Interference by an abnormal ground condition occurs when a ball lies in or touches the condition or when the condition interferes with the player's stance or the area of his intended swing. If the player's ball lies on the putting green, interference also occurs if an abnormal ground condition on the putting green intervenes on his line of putt. Otherwise, intervention on the line of play is not, of itself, interference under this Rule.
Note: The Committee may make a Local Rule stating that interference by an abnormal ground condition with a player's stance is deemed not to be, of itself, interference under this Rule.
b. Relief
(ii) In a Bunker: If the ball is in a bunker, the player must lift the ball and drop it either:
(a) Without penalty, in accordance with Clause(i) above, except that the nearest point of relief must be in the bunker and the ball must be dropped in the bunker or, if complete relief is impossible, as near as possible to the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole, on a part of the course in the bunker that affords maximum available relief from the condition; or
(b)
Under penalty of one stroke
, outside the bunker, keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the bunker the ball may be dropped.


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## Fourputt

One comment to add to Bob's correct response. It must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in fact lost in the casual water in the bunker. If it is possible that the ball may be plugged in the sand then Rule 25-1 does not apply. 25-1c says:



> c. Ball in Abnormal Ground Condition Not Found
> 
> It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck toward an abnormal ground condition is in such a condition. In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the abnormal ground condition. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.
> 
> If it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in an abnormal ground condition, the player may take relief under this Rule. If he elects to do so, the spot where the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground condition must be determined and, for the purpose of applying this Rule, the ball is deemed to lie at this spot and the player must proceed as follows:
> 
> 
> (ii) In a Bunker: If the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground condition at a spot in a bunker, the player may substitute another ball, without penalty, and take relief as prescribed in Rule 25-1b(ii).


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## broken tee

*I think Rick taught me well*

Now this brings up a situation that I'm most likely violated. I mentioned the course I normally play at pulls the stakes on there water hazards. I asked the grounds keeper and he said that they want reshape the hazards and just don't get to the construction and have just enough time to clean out the gunk and refill them so its a phu paux on them for not leaving the markers around the water hazards, but we still play them if the ground is firm like a hazard. Second they pulled all the sand out of the traps/bunkers we noticed some had GUR painted on the dirt but some did not so we assumed that the unmarked ones were ground under repair. All we did is lift and drop behind the trap/bunker. Would that be correct on our part? Jeff has one other helper trying to get this course back in shape. This is a fun course but the previous owners just let it go.


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## Fourputt

In such a situation as that where there is major reconstruction being done, I don't think that there is any right or wrong if the course isn't extensively marked, or if there is no all encompassing notice posted. As long as it is just casual play, then you have to use your best judgment.


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## FrogsHair

Question; There is a rule that only the golfer's caddy can offer advice to the golfer. Accepting helpful info from someone other than the golfer's caddy carries a penalty.

Now there has been a lot discussion that the walking rules official with Johnson's group should have offered up some info as to the bunker issue on the 18th hole. If the official had offered up info with, or with out being asked, would Johnson have been in violation of accepting advice from someone other than his caddy? Or, are rules officials exempt from this rule?

Irregardless of one's views, one thing is for sure. The game of golf is still the only game where all the rules still count, and are upheld to the highest degree.


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## broken tee

I say "NO" based on this definition of referee: 
A "referee" is one who is appointed by the Committee to accompany players to decide questions of fact and apply the Rules. He must act on any breach of a Rule that he observes or is reported to him.


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## Fourputt

FrogsHair said:


> Question; There is a rule that only the golfer's caddy can offer advice to the golfer. Accepting helpful info from someone other than the golfer's caddy carries a penalty.
> 
> Now there has been a lot discussion that the walking rules official with Johnson's group should have offered up some info as to the bunker issue on the 18th hole. If the official had offered up info with, or with out being asked, would Johnson have been in violation of accepting advice from someone other than his caddy? Or, are rules officials exempt from this rule?
> 
> Irregardless of one's views, one thing is for sure. The game of golf is still the only game where all the rules still count, and are upheld to the highest degree.


Actually its the player's caddie, his partner or his partner's caddie who can offer advice without breaching a rule. An on course rules Official is not a referee unless he has been assigned that task in a match. Stroke play competitions do not have referees.

Also, A player cannot *ask* for advice, nor can he *give* it to his opponent or fellow competitor. If his fellow competitor offers advice, the penalty is on the FC, not on the player, and the player is free to use the advice or not as he wishes. As long as no advice is solicited, meaning that it is freely and spontaneously given, then the player incurs no penalty.

The first part of your question is a bit more difficult to answer. An on course Rules Official is not a coach. He is there to observe and to make rulings as necessary. He will answer any questions posed to him about a rules situation, explain how to follow a procedure when asked, etc. He should also make every attempt to prevent an imminent breach if possible, but he should not have to volunteer information about the status of any part of the course. 

If Dustin Johnson had simply asked "Is my ball in a bunker?", the RO would have told him one way or the other, and that ruling would have stood as law, even if it was wrong. He did not do so, and he grounded his club either when the RO was not looking (there was a lot involved in getting the gallery away from the ball and out of the line of play), or he did it so abruptly that it happened before the RO could stop him. I didn't see it (we had family in from out of state), but had the RO been asked that simple question, we wouldn't even be having this discussion now. 

I ask you this: If you walk up to you ball and see it lying in sand, what is your first reaction?


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## stevel1017

Fourputt, just asking, but since the location of the bunker is common knowledge, like distance, would telling him he is in a bunker be giving advice?
I know you cant tell your opponent you hit a 7 iron, but you can tell him it is 157 yards to the pin


"Advice is any counsel or suggestion which could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club, or the method of making a stroke. Information on the Rules, distance, or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards, or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice."


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## 373

All my sympathies for him aside, Dustin Johnson had a brain fart.

That said, Whistling Straits is a ridiculous golf course with 1200+ bunkers. I'm not saying it's not a good layout tee to green because the pros seemed to think it was a good course and their opinion is what counts here. On the other hand, the absence of... oh, let's say 1000 of those bunkers wouldn't even be noticed in terms of the quality of test that course provides. Let's not even consider the reduced maintenance costs 1000 less bunkers would provide, allowing greens fees to go down and allowing more people to afford to play the course.

If it had just the remaining 200 bunkers, that would average slightly over 11 per hole. Take a few away on par 3 holes. Add a few on par 4 or par 5 holes... The next time you play, count the bunkers where you play and see how many times you find 10 bunkers per hole. While I'm no expert on Whistling Straits, I bet Pete Dye never dreamed as many as 100 bunkers would ever come into play when played by professionals.

In the bargain, it would still have it's look of a links like Kohler wanted, regardless that it can't play that way.

Just ridiculous.


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## Fourputt

stevel1017 said:


> Fourputt, just asking, but since the location of the bunker is common knowledge, like distance, would telling him he is in a bunker be giving advice?
> I know you cant tell your opponent you hit a 7 iron, but you can tell him it is 157 yards to the pin
> 
> 
> "Advice is any counsel or suggestion which could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club, or the method of making a stroke. Information on the Rules, distance, or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards, or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice."


Telling him he is in a bunker is information, not advice. However, if a fellow competitor gave him that information, or worse told him that it was NOT a bunker, and that turned out to be wrong, then it's still the player's responsibility.


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## gatonet

I do feel sorry for DJ. But he is young. He will bounce back.
As far as someone suggesting to him that he was in a bunker, sure his caddy should have.
But ultimately it was DJ's call.
He received the same notice concerning local rules and bunkers as everyone else.
Perhaps his mindset was possibly winning the PGA Championship and his thinking was distorted.
We'll see him on the leader board again!


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## broken tee

DennisM said:


> All my sympathies for him aside, Dustin Johnson had a brain fart.


Would Beano or some sort of anti-flatulent medication solve these problems with weekend hackers?


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## FrogsHair

*Inkster*

So exactly which rule(s) did Inkster violate which got her DQ'd? Is it 14.3? It may be a poor rule, or interpretation, but it's still her's and/or her caddy's mistake.


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## 373

Apparently it's against the rules to use any sort of training device while on the course in tournament play. I have read the rules a few times and honestly don't recall seeing that rule either. I wouldn't have known.

If she had grabbed two clubs to swing and loosen up, like many of us might do, I guess it would have been OK because they would not be considered training devices. I haven't heard specifically what it was that she put onto the shaft of her club, whether just a weight or something that included other features.

I have a metal donut covered in a rubber material. You slip it over the thinnest diameter of the shaft, slide it down onto the hosel and make practice swings with it to loosen up. I would never consider it a "training device" since it is only for the purpose of loosening up and doesn't have anything built into it that would help me line up or anything like that. What Julie had on her club looked like it clamped on about a foot above the head, leaving me wondering if it provided some other purpose other than just being a weight.

Some pros and sportswriters have speculated whether it's not time to review certain rules and question whether they are still valid and some have suggested the rules be rewritten in general.

I disagree. The rules might be stated in somewhat more simple language, or consolidated in some way that clearly avoids situations like this rule that DQ'ed Julie, but we have had 2 weeks in a row where ignorance of a rule, or simply not paying attention to a local rule, cost players their opportunity to win tournaments.

Of course, there is a secondary liability to being near the lead. It means you are more likely to be on television, which in turn means you are more likely to have millions of eyes on you and noticing if you break a rule that otherwise goes unnoticed. The people who call or email to say they saw someone break a rule must get a peculiar satisfaction from what they do. I feel the officials on the course and other players, not to mention each player policing himself or herself, should be enough to keep the game clean. I always wonder how may other players get away with something simply because they weren't on TV.


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## Fourputt

This:



> *4-4a/7 Carrying Weighted Training Club*
> 
> Q. May a player carry a weighted training club in addition to the 14 clubs selected for the round?
> 
> A. No, but a weighted training club may be selected as one of 14 clubs carried by a player, provided it conforms with Rule 4-1 (e.g., an excessively-weighted driver head may breach the limit on Moment of Inertia — see Appendix II).


and this too:



> *14-3/10 Use of Training or Swing Aid During Round*
> 
> Q. During a round, may a player make a stroke or a practice swing using a club with a weighted headcover or "donut" on it, or use any other device designed as a training or swing aid?
> 
> A. No. The player would be using an artificial device to assist him in his play in breach of Rule 14-3, but see also Decision 4-4a/7 for use of a weighted training club.


Very clear and concise. As an experienced professional, she should have known better.


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## FrogsHair

I have read the rule. She was guilty of using an artificial device to assist her play on the next hole. She slipped a weighted donut hole on her club to warm up after a long, 30 minute delay. The fact she had to wait so long is a non issue with regards to the rule. By warming up she was assisting herself to play the next hole. Warming up was not the problem. Using two clubs would have not been a problem. The problem was using an artificial device, on the course, during competition, to assist her play. After reading the rule 14.3, it is pretty clear cut on it's meaning and understanding. Her's, and/or her caddy's mistake all the way. The big argument that is now brewing, is the fact the violation was brought to the attention of the tournament rules official by someone sitting at home. I think they called, or emailed in the violation. A lot of people believe that at home, TV viewers should not be allowed to call in such information. In this case if the viewer had not brought the violation to someone's attention Inkster may have gotten a way with a rules violation, in route to a possible win. So if no one sees a violation, is not a violation? The on course rules officials can't see everything, and if those rules officials with TV monitors available don't see it, how is that fair to the other players who, presumably are playing by the rules? I don't know if there was rules official with Inkster's group, or if other rules officials had tv monitors at their disposal. I know in the past I have seen rule violations both in person, at tournaments as a spectator, and on televised tournament. Truth is, I would never take the time to make such info known to others because I am only a spectator/viewer. My bad. Then again golf is a game where the players police themselves. If they don't do it.......?


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## 373

Rick - Remember, some PGA Tour player got hit with a penalty when he discovered his little boy's plastic toy club in the bottom of his bag? Your comment about having the weighted club as one of fourteen reminded me of that.

I got on Twitter and asked Mallory Blackwelder if she knew whether what Julie Inkster used was just a weighted donut of whether it had other features like a swing meter or anything in it. She said it was just a weighted donut that didn't do anything else. That made me think of something else.

So Rick, my question for you is this... One of my Titleist drivers cover has a zipper. Another one has a magnet closure. Both are secure enough to swing the club with the cover on and both are heavy enough, (mostly heavy vinyl), but certainly not as heavy as a weighted club. Can I presume since they were original factory supplied equipment that came with the drivers, if I wanted to swing them to loosen up while on the course, there would be no breach of the rules?

I could understand a breach of one came more heavily weighted and was advertised specifically for the purpose, but these aren't.


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## Fourputt

I don't remember that incident. I wonder that the toy club met the criteria for being a conforming club. I Googled it and it said that it was Johnny Miller who it happened to.

I would guess that it would come down to whether or not it was determined that this was an unusual use of the equipment. It certainly is not the use for which a head cover is intended, and if you gain some degree of assistance in making your next stroke by such use, then yes, you are probably in breach of the rule. This is a scenario which I would bring up with a higher authority if I was faced with making such a ruling on the course. It seems to be a breach to me, but the severity of the penalty is such that I would feel uncomfortable making the ruling without getting a second opinion from another member of the rules team. Contrary to popular opinion, RO's do not consider themselves to be demigods. Every rules official who ever worked a competition either has blown a ruling, or he will do so in the future. I don't want to make a snap decision and then find out that my over-zealousness may have caused a player to be disqualified unfairly. 

A standing rule among on course rules officials is "When in doubt, call for backup".


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## gatonet

Rick, I'll tell you what. Every time we have a ruling question You are right on top of it! Either you have that book memorized or you keep a copy with you at all times. Either way, both are great! You're the Man when it come to rules of the Game!

On another note - most players know the rules. I like to think most of them try to abide by the rules.
Some may plead ignorance when it comes to a rules violation. We don't know.
But on the other hand, some, like Phil Mickelson a short time ago, actually call themselves. Remember when Phil was hitting out of a bunker and his ball landed in the same bunker. He swiped the sand with his club and immediately looked at his caddy and said "I may have just violated".
That's being honest with your game...


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## FrogsHair

Poor Dustin Johnson; 

"_As the crowd surrounding Johnson’s golf ball, which had settled into one of Whistling Straits’ 1,200 or so bunkers, shifted to open a path to the green, shards of light began flickering across his lie. As the crowd shifted Johnson can be heard telling a spectator, “Either cover it up . . ., yeah block it (the sun).” 

According to Rule 14-2 a player “may not place an object or position a person for the purpose of blocking the sunlight from his ball.” The decision, however, does allow for a player to ask a person who is already in position not to move, so that a shadow remains over the ball, or to move, so that his shadow is not over the ball."_

It appears ROs are not going to go any further with this, although the ROs did examine the issue. They believe his intent was to make the spectator to stand still, to stop the flickering. This is a good thing...after the fact. I remember seeing this sequence of events on the TV. I thought something might be wrong, since something similar had come up in a local tourney I was in. If the ROs were to interpretate his verbal comment to the spectator in a different way, his penalty would have been more strokes added to his card.


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## Fourputt

FrogsHair said:


> Poor Dustin Johnson;
> 
> "_As the crowd surrounding Johnson’s golf ball, which had settled into one of Whistling Straits’ 1,200 or so bunkers, shifted to open a path to the green, shards of light began flickering across his lie. As the crowd shifted Johnson can be heard telling a spectator, “Either cover it up . . ., yeah block it (the sun).”
> 
> According to Rule 14-2 a player “may not place an object or position a person for the purpose of blocking the sunlight from his ball.” The decision, however, does allow for a player to ask a person who is already in position not to move, so that a shadow remains over the ball, or to move, so that his shadow is not over the ball."_
> 
> It appears ROs are not going to go any further with this, although the ROs did examine the issue. They believe his intent was to make the spectator to stand still, to stop the flickering. This is a good thing...after the fact. I remember seeing this sequence of events on the TV. I thought something might be wrong, since something similar had come up in a local tourney I was in. If the ROs were to interpretate his verbal comment to the spectator in a different way, his penalty would have been more strokes added to his card.


From what I've seen of it, DJ didn't actually position the patron to block the sun. He asked him to him stop moving, and it just happened the the guy was blocking the sun when he did. Even though he later used the words "Yeah, block it", the guy was already positioned there, so it goes down as a fortunate coincidence, not as a rules breach.


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## broken tee

Guys: The rule judge with the players in a tournament only calls a breach while observing, the player or other players call a suspected breach. yet the Rule judge doesn't give a warning about possible infractions unless called upon I'm I correct at this point? so as you said in the case of Inkster anyone, paraphrasing here, could call an infraction, intentional or unintentional, and ruin a players credibility.

I can see Tiger's ex calling in to the officials for infractions missed by an official on him. In your opinion shouldn't this really be between player, the players honesty which has been demonstrated, rule judge and or both not the gallery.

I hope I made myself clear.


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## Fourputt

A rules official on the course Is responsible for calling infractions he observes. for assisting the players with any questions they ask regarding a rules situation, and for attempting to prevent a player from making breach when he observes that a breach is imminent. He is not responsible for telling a player if he is in a bunker or not, unless asked. The player should be able to identify different parts of the course himself, and if he is in doubt, he should either ask, or take no action which might incur a penalty until he is certain. 

The rules official is only present to assist players with rules questions and to see that the rules are followed. He is not a course guide.


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## FrogsHair

JMHO, and it won't be well liked. The gallery, and home viewers should be able to call violations, when seen, if they want to. Emphasis on "if they want to". My reasoning is this. You have 140+/-players strung out for 18 holes, for how ever long it takes to get them all through a round. The only players who can police their own group are the players in that group. The rest of the players are not able to see what is going on with the other players. Rules officials are not going to catch every little violation, if they take place. The USGA, PGA, the various tours and the players all talk about how their game does not need out side referees/umpires, or what ever. The Players police them selves. This statement also says they all know all the rules, and the interpretations of these rules Here we have two good examples of the players committing violation, most likely unintentionally, but violations just the same. Let's say Johnson, and/or Inkster had both gone on to win their respective tournaments, and the club grounding, and the artificial device issues had gone unseen, or reported. How fair would that have been for the other players who may have finished in second or third place, one or two strokes behind the winners? Will a PGA/LPGA player say it's ok to win a tournament this way? Not on the record they won't. Another thing. If the professionals took the time to understand the rules, the arm chair RO would be out of job. They may bitch about a certain rule that caused them grief, but until the current rules are changed, that is what they have to abide by during their course of play. 

I was at the LV Invitational (don't know what it's called now) I saw a rules infraction created by a well known player. He grounded his club, while in the rough, and the ball actually rolled a whole revolution. When the ball did this, he stepped back, and looked around, and addressed the ball again. I was near his caddy, and mentioned it to him. The caddy replied it was no big deal, because all the players do it. Sergio did the same thing, and it was seen plain as day on TV, and no one said anything. His ball moved a good 1" or so. So in those instances, the integrity/honesty of the game, the player policing himself was put on the back burner in liu of a better score. It also means that some of today's players are not 100% honest, as they would want you to think. With that in mind, anyone should be allowed to call in a violation from any where, at anytime simply because the game is based on honesty, and integrity, and it needs help to maintain that status. 

I agree the rules should be culled down to something easier to understand. This would help both the players, and the ROs. One of the worst violations I have seen called was the poor guy who's son was his caddy. He and his son allowed a friend of the son to walk with them. After hitting a ball, the player handed the club to the friend, who handed it to the son, who placed it in the bag. The guy won the tournament, but was later DQ'd for having using two caddies. Crazy stuff to be sure.


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## broken tee

Frogshair: I'm with Rick on a lot of the rules and the intent. He and I would banter back and forth and it took me quite a bit of time to realize the science of the rules. my arguement here is the the involvement of the crowd, TV audience or anyone not involved with the tournament making a call on the rules against a player. Where is my thinking wrong here?


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## FrogsHair

I don't think your thinking is wrong. We just have a difference of opinions which is not a bad thing. To my way of thinking the on course crowd, and the TV audience are involved in these tournaments. With out them, there is no Pro Golf. That said, I understand what you mean about their involvement in the rules of play.


broken tee said:


> Frogshair: I'm with Rick on a lot of the rules and the intent. He and I would banter back and forth and it took me quite a bit of time to realize the science of the rules. my arguement here is the the involvement of the crowd, TV audience or anyone not involved with the tournament making a call on the rules against a player. Where is my thinking wrong here?


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## Fourputt

The key to this argument is Rule 6-1. 



> 6-1. Rules
> The player and his caddie are responsible for knowing the Rules. During a stipulated round, for any breach of a Rule by his caddie, the player incurs the applicable penalty.



Regardless of the apparent inequality of allowing armchair quarterbacking on the rules, it is still 100% the player's responsibility to know and follow the Rules of Golf. This rule supports the fundamental concept that it makes no difference how the breach is discovered, the player is still the responsible party for his or his caddie's act of violating a rule.


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> The key to this argument is Rule 6-1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless of the apparent inequality of allowing armchair quarterbacking on the rules, it is still 100% the player's responsibility to know and follow the Rules of Golf. This rule supports the fundamental concept that it makes no difference how the breach is discovered, the player is still the responsible party for his or his caddie's act of violating a rule.


 I couldn't agree more Rick. To frogshair the crowd does play an important part. this is a good discussion


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## gatonet

It's difficult for us to imagine, but try teeing off with 100's of spectators surrounding the tee box.

Some of us get the first tee jitters with just our buddies at the box.

The PGA Touring Pros have so much to think about. It's very easy to lose concentration now and then.


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## FrogsHair

I like teeing off first. Makes no difference to me if I am with friends or strangers. And, I have hit some first shot "stinkers" more than a few times. I feel that when I do that, I am taking the pressure off the others in my group, while also giving them a false sense of security...:laugh: Now I do get a few butterflies if I am the last to hit, and everyone else before me have hit decent shots. 


gatonet said:


> It's difficult for us to imagine, but try teeing off with 100's of spectators surrounding the tee box.
> 
> Some of us get the first tee jitters with just our buddies at the box.
> 
> The PGA Touring Pros have so much to think about. It's very easy to lose concentration now and then.


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## FrogsHair

Now that's a bunker problem; What rule would this fall under...


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## Fourputt

FrogsHair said:


> Now that's a bunker problem; What rule would this fall under...


I know that your only joking around, but.... Rule 24-2b applies. You are entitled to relief if the obstruction interferes with your stance or the area of your intended swing. You can drop within one clublength of the nearest point of relief, but not nearer to the hole. You must still drop in the bunker if you wish to avoid a penalty stroke. You may drop outside of the bunker under penalty of one stroke. You do not get relief for line of play. 

If it was a Smart Car then it would be a movable obstruction. Just roll it off to the side. :laugh:


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## broken tee

That is a tough course in Vagas


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## KrudlerAce

*Ball Hitting You*

I recently had a friend ask me about something that happened to her during a round. She hit a shot that struck a tree and came back and hit her in the leg (she's okay). Her playing partner advised her that it was a 2 stroke penalty. 

I did some research and it used to always be a 2 stroke penalty but not that long along changed to just a 1 stroke penalty. I found out this information on the Royal And St Andrews Website. 

Just wondering if this has happened to anyone and if they can too verify that it is only a 1 stroke penalty.


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## Fourputt

KrudlerAce said:


> I recently had a friend ask me about something that happened to her during a round. She hit a shot that struck a tree and came back and hit her in the leg (she's okay). Her playing partner advised her that it was a 2 stroke penalty.
> 
> I did some research and it used to always be a 2 stroke penalty but not that long along changed to just a 1 stroke penalty. I found out this information on the Royal And St Andrews Website.
> 
> Just wondering if this has happened to anyone and if they can too verify that it is only a 1 stroke penalty.


Ball in motion deflected or stopped is covered in Rule 19. Rule 19-2 tells you what happens if it is you or your equipment which causes the deflection. 



> 19-2. By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment
> 
> If a player's ball is accidentally deflected or stopped by himself, his partner or either of their caddies or equipment, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke.


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## FrogsHair

Na, just another cart girl who had been doing jager bombs with her clients.

QUOTE=broken tee;48122]That is a tough course in Vagas[/QUOTE]


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## morediscountgol

It's to protect the golf course,also make it more convenient for next golfers!


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## gatonet

Once Again Rick Comes Through!
My Friend, I have a question related to this post.
I had a playing partner once who, on his approach shot, hit a birdie. No Really! A flying birdie.
His ball was obviously heading in the direction of the trees. But when it hit the bird it dropped in play short of the green.
We determined he was to play it as it lies and he did.
Was that the right decision?


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## FrogsHair

Don't know the rule number but I am pretty sure a bird would be considered an "outside object, and the ball is played from where it landed. The old "rub of the green" scenario. Trick is to know what constitutes an "outside object". Now I sort of broke that rule once while playing in Grants, New Mexico. I hit a ball on to the green, and saw it roll up towards the hole and stop against what I thought was a piece of clothing. Once I got close enough, that piece of clothing turned out be a rather large rattlesnake. we knew immediately that this critter did not like people, especially golfer(s) who hit him with golf balls. Not only did I not play the ball as it lay, I left it as it was lying, as did the rest of the folks in the group. I'll take the penalty anytime before messing with a snake.


gatonet said:


> Once Again Rick Comes Through!
> My Friend, I have a question related to this post.
> I had a playing partner once who, on his approach shot, hit a birdie. No Really! A flying birdie.
> His ball was obviously heading in the direction of the trees. But when it hit the bird it dropped in play short of the green.
> We determined he was to play it as it lies and he did.
> Was that the right decision?


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## broken tee

I did the same thing: hitting a bird in flight and played the ball as it lay.


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## Fourputt

gatonet said:


> Once Again Rick Comes Through!
> My Friend, I have a question related to this post.
> I had a playing partner once who, on his approach shot, hit a birdie. No Really! A flying birdie.
> His ball was obviously heading in the direction of the trees. But when it hit the bird it dropped in play short of the green.
> We determined he was to play it as it lies and he did.
> Was that the right decision?


Yes. You may have heard the phrase "rub of the green" in golf? That is what is meant by it. A lot of people take it to mean bad luck, but it's no such thing. A "rub of the green" is nothing more than a ball in motion deflected by an outside agency. It can be either lucky or unlucky, but that is the actual definition for it from the rule book. 

You play the ball as it lies after a rub of the green.


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## broken tee

I like that phrase "Rub of the green." I'll have to use that when I dork up a shot(correctly or incorrectly)


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## FrogsHair

*More DQ's*

Shi Hyn Ahn and Il Mi Chung were DQ’d at the LPGA Canadian Open, after they mistakenly played each other’s golf balls on the 18th green late Thursday. Let's see, that makes it a tie. PGA 2, LPGA 2 in the past 3-4 weeks. Any bets on which tour is next? Nationwide, or the Champions' Tour? Euro Tour? Spectator covered dirt, a weighted donut hole, balls, and a faulty alarm clock. Rules are rules, and you have to play by them. I have played the wrong ball from the fairway rough a couple of time over the past 35 years, but never when already on the green. :dunno:


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## Fourputt

FrogsHair said:


> Shi Hyn Ahn and Il Mi Chung were DQ’d at the LPGA Canadian Open, after they mistakenly played each other’s golf balls on the 18th green late Thursday. Let's see, that makes it a tie. PGA 2, LPGA 2 in the past 3-4 weeks. Any bets on which tour is next? Nationwide, or the Champions' Tour? Euro Tour? Spectator covered dirt, a weighted donut hole, balls, and a faulty alarm clock. Rules are rules, and you have to play by them. I have played the wrong ball from the fairway rough a couple of time over the past 35 years, but never when already on the green. :dunno:


That shouldn't have been a disqualification penalty. That is only 2 strokes if they correct the error before they leave the putting green. They must have either left the green, OR they signed an incorrect scorecard by failing to include the penalty. I can't imagine how 2 professionals would both fail to put an identification mark on their balls.


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## dadamson

FrogsHair said:


> Don't know the rule number but I am pretty sure a bird would be considered an "outside object, and the ball is played from where it landed. The old "rub of the green" scenario. Trick is to know what constitutes an "outside object". Now I sort of broke that rule once while playing in Grants, New Mexico. I hit a ball on to the green, and saw it roll up towards the hole and stop against what I thought was a piece of clothing. Once I got close enough, that piece of clothing turned out be a rather large rattlesnake. we knew immediately that this critter did not like people, especially golfer(s) who hit him with golf balls. Not only did I not play the ball as it lay, I left it as it was lying, as did the rest of the folks in the group. I'll take the penalty anytime before messing with a snake.


Lol now that's a "rub of the green"!

That must be one of the strangest golf stories I have heard! :rofl:


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## Fourputt

FrogsHair said:


> Don't know the rule number but I am pretty sure a bird would be considered an "outside object, and the ball is played from where it landed. The old "rub of the green" scenario. Trick is to know what constitutes an "outside object". Now I sort of broke that rule once while playing in Grants, New Mexico. I hit a ball on to the green, and saw it roll up towards the hole and stop against what I thought was a piece of clothing. Once I got close enough, that piece of clothing turned out be a rather large rattlesnake. we knew immediately that this critter did not like people, especially golfer(s) who hit him with golf balls. Not only did I not play the ball as it lay, I left it as it was lying, as did the rest of the folks in the group. I'll take the penalty anytime before messing with a snake.


Hmmmm guess I didn't read this entire post when I saw it the first time. :dunno: Actually, you didn't have to take a penalty for that. Decision 1-4/10 says:



> 1-4/10 Dangerous Situation; Rattlesnake or Bees Interfere with Play
> 
> Q. A player's ball comes to rest in a situation dangerous to the player, e.g., near a live rattlesnake or a bees' nest. Does the player have any options in addition to playing the ball as it lies or, if applicable, proceeding under Rule 26 or 28?
> 
> A. Yes. It is unreasonable to expect the player to play from such a dangerous situation and unfair to require the player to incur a penalty under Rule 26 (Water Hazards) or Rule 28 (Ball Unplayable).
> 
> If the ball lay through the green, the player may, without penalty, drop a ball within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest spot not nearer the hole that is not dangerous and is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.
> 
> If the ball lay in a hazard, the player may drop a ball, without penalty, within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest spot not nearer the hole that is not dangerous. If possible, the ball must be dropped in the same hazard and, if not possible, in a similar nearby hazard, but in either case not nearer the hole. If it is not possible for the player to drop the ball in a hazard, he may drop it, under penalty of one stroke, outside the hazard, keeping the point where the original ball lay between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped.
> 
> If the ball lay on the putting green, the player may, without penalty, place a ball at the nearest spot not nearer the hole that is not dangerous and that is not in a hazard.
> 
> If it is clearly unreasonable for the player to make a stroke because of interference by anything other than the dangerous situation or if the situation would be dangerous only through the use of an unnecessarily abnormal stance, swing, or direction of play, he may not take relief as prescribed above, but he is not precluded from proceeding under Rule 26 or 28 if applicable. (Revised)


You do not have to retrieve the ball... another ball may be substituted.


----------



## gatonet

Greetings All!
I play in Florida. This rule would also apply to Gators right?

No not those Gators. I'm a Noles Fan!


----------



## Fourputt

gatonet said:


> Greetings All!
> I play in Florida. This rule would also apply to Gators right?
> 
> No not those Gators. I'm a Noles Fan!


Yes... any case where wildlife may be a danger to the player. It does not apply to plants like poison ivy though. Decision 1-4/11:



> 1-4/11 Meaning of "Dangerous Situation"
> 
> Q. According to Decision 1-4/10, a ball lying near a live rattlesnake or bees' nest is a "dangerous situation" and relief should be granted in equity.
> 
> If a player's ball comes to rest in or near an area of plants such as poison ivy, cacti or stinging nettles, should the provisions of Decision 1-4/10 apply?
> 
> A. No. The player must either play the ball as it lies or, if applicable, proceed under Rule 26 (Water Hazards) or Rule 28 (Ball Unplayable).
> 
> Decision 1-4/10 contemplates a situation which is unrelated to conditions normally encountered on the course. Unpleasant lies are a common occurrence which players must accept.


----------



## broken tee

*Don't Laugh to hard*

Don't fall down laughing if you can picture this lob shot I had. The question is should I have added a penalty to the score card? When I swung, the ball went straght up and down the back of my shirt rolled off my butt for another 6 feet behind me. Am I in violation of 19-2? the way I read it I am.

Luke my friend go ahead. I'm waiting and it better be good


----------



## gatonet

What I want to know is, is there video footage? lol


----------



## broken tee

You should have heard my comment.. I know ;" what was that?" came out of my mouth. My buddies had a heck of a time making their next tee shot they were still laughing. So am I.:laugh:


----------



## Top Bub

Too funny! Maybe you should think about a helmet!:laugh::laugh:


----------



## broken tee

Top Bub said:


> Too funny! Maybe you should think about a helmet!:laugh::laugh:[/QUOTE
> 
> The way I've been playing I think you're right and everyone on the course:laugh:


----------



## Surtees

broken tee said:


> Don't fall down laughing if you can picture this lob shot I had. The question is should I have added a penalty to the score card? When I swung, the ball went straght up and down the back of my shirt rolled off my butt for another 6 feet behind me. Am I in violation of 19-2? the way I read it I am.
> 
> Luke my friend go ahead. I'm waiting and it better be good


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: I don't even need to say anything my friend nice one!


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Don't fall down laughing if you can picture this lob shot I had. The question is should I have added a penalty to the score card? When I swung, the ball went straght up and down the back of my shirt rolled off my butt for another 6 feet behind me. Am I in violation of 19-2? the way I read it I am.
> 
> Luke my friend go ahead. I'm waiting and it better be good


One stroke for deflecting your ball in motion, plus a bit of advice. If I were you I'd leave the LW at home in the garage as I do. It's much more useful there than it is in my bag.


----------



## broken tee

I thought so and I'll take your advice Rick under consideration I've replaced my sand wedge with it


----------



## broken tee

Surtees said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl: I don't even need to say anything my friend nice one!


Now you did notice the proper use of the Queen's English in my disciption. knowing that I was adding insult to my own demise. knowingly that the young Aussie Administrator was luking in the depths of cyber space to capilalize on one simple little mistake made by this harmless, gentle and kindly o*d Yank:laugh:


----------



## Fourputt

Got a new one for you:

A player hits his ball 10 inches from the hole with his second shot. He walks to the ball, takes his stance and grounds his putter. Just as he is about to start his takeaway a gust of wind starts rolling the ball towards the hole. As the ball is moving the player tries to hit it but misses. The ball falls into the hole.

How many strokes has he played so far and how should he continue?


----------



## stevel1017

I'll take a stab at this (pardon the pun)
by grounding his putter, it will be deemed he caused the ball to move, what takes place after that does not count,
so he replaces the ball under a one stroke penatly and proceeds from there


----------



## Fourputt

stevel1017 said:


> I'll take a stab at this (pardon the pun)
> by grounding his putter, it will be deemed he caused the ball to move, what takes place after that does not count,
> so he replaces the ball under a one stroke penatly and proceeds from there


Not quite true. Just because the movement was deemed to have been caused by him doesn't terminate or cancel any subsequent actions. It isn't the same as playing a wrong ball where any strokes taken or penalties incurred with the wrong ball don't count.


----------



## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> Not quite true. Just because the movement was deemed to have been caused by him doesn't terminate or cancel any subsequent actions. It isn't the same as playing a wrong ball where any strokes taken or penalties incurred with the wrong ball don't count.


Rule 18-2b he incurs 1 penalty stroke and the ball has to be replaced. if a par 3 putting for 4


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Rule 18-2b he incurs 1 penalty stroke and the ball has to be replaced. if a par 3 putting for 4


Umm.. Bob, you might want to read the original scenario again. He hit his 2nd shot to 10 inches. Then the fun began... :laugh:

Does anyone see anything wrong with his whiff at the ball?


----------



## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> Umm.. Bob, you might want to read the original scenario again. He hit his 2nd shot to 10 inches. Then the fun began... :laugh:
> 
> Does anyone see anything wrong with his whiff at the ball?


Alright I got the right rule he whiffs the ball for three plus the penalty stroke for four the ball is put back to the spot putting for five. and I had a great round today for show not for dough


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Alright I got the right rule he whiffs the ball for three plus the penalty stroke for four the ball is put back to the spot putting for five. and I had a great round today for show not for dough


Yeah, well this guy had a tough day on that green too. Here's my take on the scenario, and it's just how I think I'd rule on it. I don't have a definitive answer. 

First, the ball is not holed. If the wind blows the ball into the hole before it has been addressed then it is deemed to have been holed on the last stroke. Since in this case he has addressed the ball, it cannot be deemed to have been holed on his last stroke because rule 18-2 requires it to be replaced. One stroke penalty for causing his ball to move after address (Rule 18-2b). It must be replaced. He also made a stroke at a moving ball - 2 stroke penalty (Rule 14-5), and I believe that the stroke counts as well. When the ball is replaced, he is lying 4 more than he was before the ball started to move. So he would be lying 6, hitting 7 for the tap-in. In my opinion. 


If he doesn't replace the ball and finish the hole, then he has no score for that hole and would be disqualified in stroke play or lose the hole in match play. If he does replace the ball and finishes the hole on his next stroke, then he makes a 7.


----------



## gatonet

Hmmmmm? I'll be back. Where's that rule book?


----------



## broken tee

Never thought of 14-5 coming in to play there...good call


----------



## KrudlerAce

*Tire Tracks*

This came up last Saturday at my local golf course and was asked by one of my playing partners about his previous round of golf. His ball landed in tyre marks (clearly visable) but in the rough beside the fairway. He wanted to get a drop but his playing partner said that the tyre tracks have to be on the fairway to entitle him to a free drop.

I always believed that as long as your golf ball is on tyre tracks regardless of where they are, you are entitled to a free drop no nearer the hole.

Curious to hear any other opinions.


----------



## broken tee

KrudlerAce said:


> This came up last Saturday at my local golf course and was asked by one of my playing partners about his previous round of golf. His ball landed in tyre marks (clearly visable) but in the rough beside the fairway. He wanted to get a drop but his playing partner said that the tyre tracks have to be on the fairway to entitle him to a free drop.
> 
> I always believed that as long as your golf ball is on tyre tracks regardless of where they are, you are entitled to a free drop no nearer the hole.
> 
> Curious to hear any other opinions.


25/16 Rut Made by Tractor 
Q. Is a rut made by a tractor considered a hole made by a greenkeeper and thus ground under repair? If not, should the Committee declare such a rut to be ground under repair?
A. Such a rut is not a hole made by a greenkeeper. The Committee would be justified in declaring a deep rut to be ground under repair, but not a shallow indentation made by greenkeeping equipment.
Competitor Announces Intention to Play Two Balls; Plays Original Ball Before Dropping Second Ball; Elects Not to Play Second Ball — See 3-3/7.5.
Ball in Rut; Competitor Drops One Ball in Accordance with Rules for Ground Under Repair and Unplayable Ball — See 3-3/11.
I'd say if the track impeded the players swing or stance then relief is warranted. let's see what others say.


----------



## Fourputt

There is no automatic answer. As Bob posted, the Rules do not specifically allow this, but the committee still has the option of marking such an area as ground under repair. In my experience, that would only happen if the ruts were in the fairway and were a significant deterrent to making a shot. If they were extremely bad and not too far off the fairway then we might mark them, but that would be strictly on a case by case basis. 

Usually if they are off the fairway then they don't get any consideration at all, especially if they are parallel to the line of play.


----------



## FrogsHair

Almost ridiculous with the way these DQs are going;

Chad Campbell Forgets to Sign Dotted Line, Booted From Deutsche Bank -- Golf FanHouse

Not knowing the format, if not registered, I wonder how he was able to get a starting time for the round he did play in? And, of course the players are talking about needing this rule changed. Perhaps using a little more brain power might be a better route to take when it comes to these various rules violations that been resulting in all these DQs.


----------



## Fourputt

FrogsHair said:


> Almost ridiculous with the way these DQs are going;
> 
> Chad Campbell Forgets to Sign Dotted Line, Booted From Deutsche Bank -- Golf FanHouse
> 
> Not knowing the format, if not registered, I wonder how he was able to get a starting time for the round he did play in? And, of course the players are talking about needing this rule changed. Perhaps using a little more brain power might be a better route to take when it comes to these various rules violations that been resulting in all these DQs.


As I see it, you have to follow policy until it isn't the policy. Since this is apparently something that they do every week on Tour, I don't see why anyone would make a big deal of it just because it's the Fed-Ex Cup playoff. Just do what you do week in and week out. 

My Men's Club also requires a check in at the tournament desk for each day of play as well as checking in with the starter. Failure to check in is a DQ for us too.


----------



## gatonet

I would agree that a tire track, although left unintentionally, would be considered ground under repair.


----------



## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> There is no automatic answer. As Bob posted, the Rules do not specifically allow this, but the committee still has the option of marking such an area as ground under repair. In my experience, that would only happen if the ruts were in the fairway and were a significant deterrent to making a shot. If they were extremely bad and not too far off the fairway then we might mark them, but that would be strictly on a case by case basis.
> 
> Usually if they are off the fairway then they don't get any consideration at all, especially if they are parallel to the line of play.


This was the closest answer I could find that related to his question. What throws me a curve is how far off the fairway's short grass? Now in an un-groomed area of the fairway I can understand, but what about the rough that is groomed? under competitive play I'm sure an area of this nature would have been marked, but in general play who makes the call other than the players. I agree this is not an automatic answer, the decision I quoted was still vague.


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> This was the closest answer I could find that related to his question. What throws me a curve is how far off the fairway's short grass? Now in an un-groomed area of the fairway I can understand, but what about the rough that is groomed? under competitive play I'm sure an area of this nature would have been marked, but in general play who makes the call other than the players. I agree this is not an automatic answer, the decision I quoted was still vague.


The answer I gave is the policy of the Colorado Golf Association in their championships. This exact example was shown to me in the first tournament I worked with them as an on course rules official. The CRO (chief rules official) was taking me around and showing me the ropes. There were 2 areas near each other which were both rutted from golf carts and mowers. They were both similar, but one was in rough and the other was in fairway. He said without any discussion that the ruts in the rough were not GUR. He did say that the ones in the fairway may or may not have been depending on my judgment as to whether it would be reasonable to play a stroke from them. In this case they posed no more problem than a shallow divot, so we agreed that no relief would be given. 

Cases like this are basically up to the tournament staff and rules officials, and some are more generous than others. I know that the PGA Tour is more lenient than the CGA is... the Tour is more lenient than the R&A or the USGA tend to be, and we generally follow the USGA's lead in this. The idea is to limit the opportunity that the player has to interact with the ball in any way except by making a stroke. I try to keep that premise in mind when making any decision on whether the situation or condition truly calls for relief.


----------



## dadamson

Fourputt said:


> The answer I gave is the policy of the Colorado Golf Association in their championships. This exact example was shown to me in the first tournament I worked with them as an on course rules official. The CRO (chief rules official) was taking me around and showing me the ropes. There were 2 areas near each other which were both rutted from golf carts and mowers. They were both similar, but one was in rough and the other was in fairway. He said without any discussion that the ruts in the rough were not GUR. He did say that the ones in the fairway may or may not have been depending on my judgment as to whether it would be reasonable to play a stroke from them. In this case they posed no more problem than a shallow divot, so we agreed that no relief would be given.
> 
> Cases like this are basically up to the tournament staff and rules officials, and some are more generous than others. I know that the PGA Tour is more lenient than the CGA is... the Tour is more lenient than the R&A or the USGA tend to be, and we generally follow the USGA's lead in this. The idea is to limit the opportunity that the player has to interact with the ball in any way except by making a stroke. I try to keep that premise in mind when making any decision on whether the situation or condition truly calls for relief.


I agree with this. Situations that are hard to judge are usually up to the club officials. More often than not they give the benefit of the doubt and they are experienced golfers themselves


----------



## gatonet

*Need a Little Help Here*

Golf rules trivia time: If a player accidently causes his or her ball to move while searching for it in abnormal ground conditions, does the player incur a penalty?


----------



## Fourputt

gatonet said:


> Golf rules trivia time: If a player accidently causes his or her ball to move while searching for it in abnormal ground conditions, does the player incur a penalty?


I know - I know!!!!  But I'll wait to post until someone else has a chance.


----------



## broken tee

Okay Rick ME first, ME FIRST!:laugh: No penalty Under 18-2 (iii) and 12-1


----------



## gatonet

Rick, I thought you would be all over this one.
But, broken tee is correct.
Your prize is in the mail. lol


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Okay Rick ME first, ME FIRST!:laugh: No penalty Under 18-2 (iii) and 12-1


Good one Bob... you're really starting to get the hang of this rules stuff.


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## broken tee

Thank you Rick , but there is still alot to learn. the more we do this the better we all get.:thumbsup:


----------



## broken tee

gatonet said:


> Rick, I thought you would be all over this one.
> But, broken tee is correct.
> Your prize is in the mail. lol


Oh boy, I won, I won! a bag of broken tees and super glue:laugh:


----------



## broken tee

*Commitee Rules*

We've discussed abnormal ground conditions and I'm referring to the Appendix Part A number 4 ground conditions as it applies to the commitee's authority. A couse that I play is being renovated the fairways have some very thin grass areas. the local rule is a player can as it was told to me "bump" to improve the lie in the fairways in any direction I've seen no notice posted, but I do trust the player I was with. anyone heard of this?


----------



## gatonet

Any Direction?
I was always under the impression you could not move, place, or drop, your ball any closer to the hole.
???


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## broken tee

You're right and that is the problem, if true then the committee has over stepped its authority without approval from the USGA


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> You're right and that is the problem, if true then the committee has over stepped its authority without approval from the USGA


That's for certain. The most adamant prohibition in the rules is the restriction for advancing the ball closer to the hole by any means other than by making a stroke. If that course is truly allowing this for sanctioned play then they are way out of line. A course which is in such bad shape that you can't find a legal place to take such relief shouldn't even be open. I would never play such a course for handicap or any sort of competition. It's doubtful that I would play it at all if it was in such bad condition.


----------



## broken tee

Rick glad you jumped in there. The course is better this year than last year. the superintendant who worked as a starter bought the course from the pompus A** Home owner association who just let things go. the word got out to to the men and womens leagues and local golfer in the surrounding area to supported his efforts and get the course back in shape. I'm assuming that this so called rule is for general play because he does hold tournements. I'll check it out again the next time I play there. I never "bumped" or even thought about it until I played with a regular and I've known him for five years.


----------



## dadamson

The most petty rule bit me in the bum on the weekend! I drove a nice straight 270 yard drive down the centre of the fairway and landed it right in the cavern of a divot.

The person who took out the chunk of grass not only failed to replace the grass, he also failed to fill the divot with sand.

According to the rules, I had to play it where it lies. Ended up 2 over par when I was probably on target for an eagle.



I'd like to mention, I've just completely finished my golfers training report, before putting it on the market, I'd like to share it with the great guys here at GolfForum.com

If you are interested, you can download here: "How To Become A Better Golfer In 30 Days


----------



## broken tee

dadamson said:


> The most petty rule bit me in the bum on the weekend! I drove a nice straight 270 yard drive down the centre of the fairway and landed it right in the cavern of a divot.
> 
> The person who took out the chunk of grass not only failed to replace the grass, he also failed to fill the divot with sand.
> 
> According to the rules, I had to play it where it lies. Ended up 2 over par when I was probably on target for an eagle.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to mention, I've just completely finished my golfers training report, before putting it on the market, I'd like to share it with the great guys here at GolfForum.com
> 
> If you are interested, you can download here: "How To Become A Better Golfer In 30 Days


I odered a copy sent to my bestest friend in all of Australia. We call him the Geelong Flash. I was hoping you can give him the 30 minute version. I just love helping him when evver I can. what are friends for?


----------



## Surtees

THanks for the help Bob I'm glad you noticed that your game is beyond help!!!!!!


----------



## FrogsHair

I went as head and ordered the the down load. I will give it a good look see. I can always use some help with my game, and always look for some new information. In my game the more I play and practice, the better scores I achieve. 

Since I spend 5 days a week out in no man's (till December 31st) land with no internet service to speak of, or other things to do to occupy my off hours, I have been writing down my thoughts on playing golf. Since I am advocate on learning the game from green to tee (backwards) that is how I am putting it all together. It's not something I have plans to publish, or even sell. It's just something I decided to do to kill time, and maybe pass on to family members. So far, I have covered putting to pitch shots, and have 30 pages written. About the time I think I am finished with a section, I remember something else to add.


----------



## broken tee

*I know I'm making new friends*



Surtees said:


> THanks for the help Bob I'm glad you noticed that your game is beyond help!!!!!!


If it takes 30 days to improve in Northeastern Australia. I figured you need the US version he wrote. How to improve in 30 minutes.:cheeky4:


----------



## dadamson

broken tee said:


> If it takes 30 days to improve in Northeastern Australia. I figured you need the US version he wrote. How to improve in 30 minutes.:cheeky4:


lol you guys are hilarious!


----------



## gatonet

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----------



## broken tee

*The committee*

I've read rule 33 about the committee and basiccally it states how to rule on course conditions and scoring. What I'm looking for is the authority to enforce dress code of a player or caddie, as we discussed on another thread. So far I haven't found this under USGA rules. My only assumption is the local rules of the club or course holding the event have the authority. is this an accurrate assumption?

I did find that The PGA club International does have a dress code but not under USGA can anyone elaborate on this More?


----------



## Fourputt

Apparel has nothing to do with the rules of golf. I suppose that it could be included as part of the instructions for players, or as a condition of the competition. It isn't a rules issue though. There isn't any penalty that can be associated with such a code aside from not allowing a player to start play if he is in violation of the dress code.


----------



## broken tee

That confirms my assumption, so who or what is The PGA club International.


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> That confirms my assumption, so who or what is The PGA club International.


Never heard of it. :dunno:


----------



## mack12

*tee shirt printer*

There is one really good reason for marking your ball before you lift it when you are taking relief, and it can be necessary whether you are getting free relief or taking a penalty drop. Still looking for that one.


----------



## Fourputt

mack12 said:


> There is one really good reason for marking your ball before you lift it when you are taking relief, and it can be necessary whether you are getting free relief or taking a penalty drop. Still looking for that one.


Don't really know what you are getting at. The only reason I can think of for marking the spot is if you might need to measure to find the nearest point of relief (which only applies to taking relief from an obstruction or abnormal ground), or if you are measuring 2 clublengths for your drop from an unplayable lie. 

If you lift your ball, then change your mind about taking relief, marking it doesn't make any difference because you still get penalized for moving your ball, even if you replace it. I will always leave the ball in place until I have evaluated my options and made a decision. If I need to measure, I will measure from the ball itself, then lift it and drop. That way I haven't burned any bridges before I'm certain what I need to do. 

So marking is not really necessary in any of those situations. If you lift the ball because you are certain that you will be taking relief, it doesn't hurt to place a mark until you finish the procedure, but there is little advantage that I can see for it over just leaving the ball as it lies. :dunno:


----------



## broken tee

Fourputt and I have discussed this and take his advice know what you're looking at. I suggest you look at the USGA website and the rule/s that apply to abnomal ground conditions obstructions movable and inmovable plus just lifting the ball you'll be amazed.:thumbsup:


----------



## CoastieJeff

Here's one. When on the tee box, I like to find a mark just beyond my tee'd ball to use as a swing/aiming aid during address and swing. My question is, can you use an artificial object, like a ball marker or tee, and place it out in front of your tee'd ball to use as an aid?


----------



## Fourputt

CoastieJeff said:


> Here's one. When on the tee box, I like to find a mark just beyond my tee'd ball to use as a swing/aiming aid during address and swing. My question is, can you use an artificial object, like a ball marker or tee, and place it out in front of your tee'd ball to use as an aid?


No. If you find a broken tee or other object already lying on the ground you can tee your ball on your line behind it, but you can't place anything to show the line. You can't put something on the ground and then tee your ball up behind it as the order of placement doesn't matter. All that matters is your reason for placing the object in the first place.


----------



## CoastieJeff

Fourputt said:


> No. If you find a broken tee or other object already lying on the ground you can tee your ball on your line behind it, but you can't place anything to show the line. You can't put something on the ground and then tee your ball up behind it as the order of placement doesn't matter. All that matters is your reason for placing the object in the first place.


Thanks Rick. Can you cite the rule that lays that out?


----------



## broken tee

CoastieJeff said:


> Thanks Rick. Can you cite the rule that lays that out?


I think this is the rule your looking for:

8-2. Indicating Line of Play. Other Than on Putting Green

Except on the putting green, a player may have the line of play indicated to him by anyone, but no one may be positioned by the player on or close to the line or an extension of the line beyond the hole while the stroke is being made. Any mark placed by the player or with his knowledge to indicate the line must be removed before the stroke is made.


----------



## Fourputt

And this decision:



> *8-2a/2 Object Placed Beside or Behind Ball to Indicate Line of Play*
> 
> Q. May a player place his pipe or a club beside his ball, or an object behind his ball, to indicate the line of play and leave the object there while playing a stroke?
> 
> A. No. Such action would be a breach of Rule 8-2a.


Although it doesn't say in front of, the application is the same. Any object placed by the player for such a purpose is a breach of rule 8-2a. A pre-existing object is not.


----------



## gatonet

Just a Quick Note: This also applies to a rules question we had about placing an object in front of your ball to indicate line of attack.
Well, I started using the advice given, "find an existing object on the tee box and use that for your line."
I now find a broken tee or other object and place my tee behind that so that my line is easier to see. I have improved my tee shots dramatically, especially par 3's.
I recommend trying this!


----------



## broken tee

It's a fine idea just as long as you didn't put it there we'll let you play on the forum


----------



## gatonet

Exactly! It also helps with lining up my stance. Which in turn determines the flight direction of the ball.
Great Idea!!!
I use it on all my tee shots when possible.


----------



## FrogsHair

Just a thought; In a formal competition could the use of left over debris (by others) be considered illegal assistance, and fall under rule 14.3 some where? .............Just kidding folks


----------



## broken tee

*I can't find this*

“The player’s clubs must conform to the groove and punch mark specifications in the Rules of Golf that are effective from January 1, 2010. Where are the specifications in the rules of golf? Rule 4 doesn't state this nor did I find the specs specifically mentioned in the decision 4-1/1.:dunno:

Next some one mentioned that the European golf ball is smaller than the North American golf ball, if this is fact and I know that a millimeter isn't that much. Shouldn't the equipment be standard world wide for the game's "equality" of play.Is this a valid discussion or has the issue been addressed.:dunno:


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> “The player’s clubs must conform to the groove and punch mark specifications in the Rules of Golf that are effective from January 1, 2010. Where are the specifications in the rules of golf? Rule 4 doesn't state this nor did I find the specs specifically mentioned in the decision 4-1/1.:dunno:


See Appendix II 



broken tee said:


> Next some one mentioned that the European golf ball is smaller than the North American golf ball, if this is fact and I know that a millimeter isn't that much. Shouldn't the equipment be standard world wide for the game's "equality" of play.Is this a valid discussion or has the issue been addressed.:dunno:


No longer true. The British ball used to be 1.62" minimum diameter while the US ball was 1.68" (about 1/16" larger). Now all legal balls are the same at 1.68".


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> See Appendix II
> 
> 
> 
> No longer true. The British ball used to be 1.62" minimum diameter while the US ball was 1.68" (about 1/16" larger). Now all legal balls are the same at 1.68".


Thank you my friend I new I could count on your knowledge.:thumbsup:This what I needed to know.


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## FrogsHair

Ok, this caused an disagreement among a couple of guys in our foursome this morning. A player's ball stopped on the cart path. All were in agreement that he could take relief from the cart path. It's concrete, and hitting off of it could cause a health/equipment problem. The player dropped his ball, however when he took his stance, he still had one foot on the cart path. The guy he was playing with, told him he had to take total relief if he was going to take any relief at all. That both feet had to be off the cart path also. They asked my partner and myself about it. We both did not really know, and left it at that. 

It is my opinion, that you either not take any relief, (hit off the cart path) or that you take full relief, which to me would mean both feet would be off the cart path. That said, I have stood on the cart path with both feet while hitting a ball that was in the grass next to the cart path. It never occurred to me if I could take relief from that situation, and not have to stand on the cart path. Of course since I don't wear soft, or metal spikes, standing on the cart path never seemed like a big deal. As for the original question, the guy re dropped his ball so that both his feet would be off the cart path. Both had sub par rounds.


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## stevel1017

yes he had to take complete relief, so no standing on the path
STOP! Don?t Touch that Ball on the Cart Path -- Northern California Golf Association


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## Fourputt

stevel1017 said:


> yes he had to take complete relief, so no standing on the path
> STOP! Don?t Touch that Ball on the Cart Path -- Northern California Golf Association


That article is spot on. I've played many shots from cart paths and maintenance roads... gravel, asphalt and concrete... it's not really that difficult to do. 

Sometimes the nearest point of (complete) relief does NOT give you a reasonable chance for a playable lie. Cart paths often are routed through tall rough and brush where any drop is going to be a problem. You don't get to choose the best point of relief, you drop where the rules say you drop, and if that turns out to be unplayable, then you have just made your problem worse. If you already picked up your ball, you can't change your mind and replace it in the path without incurring a penalty stroke for moving your ball. 

It's a good rule of thumb to never touch your ball until you know what you are going to do with it. This is true if it's in a hazard too. If it lies in a place which gives you the option of playing it as it lies, then consider your options before lifting it and burning your bridges. Also note that when taking relief from a hazard, only the ball must be totally clear of the hazard after the drop. The player may still be standing within the margin.


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## broken tee

nothing more needs to be said


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## broken tee

*Authority*

How much authority does a commitee have to rule what is ground under repair on a green. case in point; At my favorite course to start the season a dip stick drove his jeep on a green last month. tournament(chilly open) play was on a temporay green but general play continued on the damaged green, for those of us that landed in the damaged area we were futher away from the hole than if we putted from where the ball lay. not carrying the rule book I think we may have violated lifting and replacing the ball. I think the rule committee should have declared the green closed and all played the temporary.
froze my putter off before the snow started coming down. hey it was a balmy 34f today I had cabin fever.


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> How much authority does a commitee have to rule what is ground under repair on a green. case in point; At my favorite course to start the season a dip stick drove his jeep on a green last month. tournament(chilly open) play was on a temporay green but general play continued on the damaged green, for those of us that landed in the damaged area we were futher away from the hole than if we putted from where the ball lay. not carrying the rule book I think we may have violated lifting and replacing the ball. I think the rule committee should have declared the green closed and all played the temporary.
> froze my putter off before the snow started coming down. hey it was a balmy 34f today I had cabin fever.


The competition committee has not only the right, but the duty to declare any unplayable areas of the course as ground under repair. If the area is of significant size, then they should also create a dropping zone so that all players receive relief in an equitable manner.


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## Doug Green

Thanks for creating this thread about the rules. This will remind us of what the rules are and not make a mistake like what happened to Camilo Villegas when he was disqualified.


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## gatonet

Not Following the rules? You're just fulling yourself...


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## FrogsHair

Ok, well after the fact. A player, in a match play tournament addresses the ball, and takes his stance. Just before starting his back swing, he feels something uncomfortable under his rear foot. It' a rock, and he uses his foot to remove it, to gain a firmer stance, while still in his stance/address position. Can this be consider "building a stance" and if so, does it still carry a penalty such as loss of the hole, or a penalty stroke? Also with the rules official standing right there, who sees the rock being moved, would he be obligated to inform the player of his rule violation? 

I remember some years ago Craig Stadler who had to get down on his knees to hit a ball out from under a bush. Before he knelt down he put a towel on the ground to keep from getting his pants dirty. He was penalized for building a stance. Paul Azinger was penalize for moving a pebble out from under his foot while standing in water.

Golf can be a cruel game at times.


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## Big Hobbit

Would the rock not be deemed a loose impediment unless it was either embedded or in a hazard? There's nothing wrong with taking your stance/address then moving. If the rules official sees an infringement he is obligated to tell the player and cry foul.

Here's something I found out a while back. If a player is unsure that an opponent in matchplay has broken a rule but doesn't say something till after the hole has been completed the result for the hole stands.

Poor Craig Stadler was hard done by when penalised for putting a towel down. I wouldn't consider that building a stance but where do you draw the line? Crazily, if he's put waterproof bottoms on he'd have been fine.

Azinger was penalised because the he moved the stone in a hazard.


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## Fourputt

FrogsHair said:


> Ok, well after the fact. A player, in a match play tournament addresses the ball, and takes his stance. Just before starting his back swing, he feels something uncomfortable under his rear foot. It' a rock, and he uses his foot to remove it, to gain a firmer stance, while still in his stance/address position. Can this be consider "building a stance" and if so, does it still carry a penalty such as loss of the hole, or a penalty stroke? Also with the rules official standing right there, who sees the rock being moved, would he be obligated to inform the player of his rule violation?
> 
> I remember some years ago Craig Stadler who had to get down on his knees to hit a ball out from under a bush. Before he knelt down he put a towel on the ground to keep from getting his pants dirty. He was penalized for building a stance. Paul Azinger was penalize for moving a pebble out from under his foot while standing in water.
> 
> Golf can be a cruel game at times.



If the stone was just a loose impediment then there is no penalty. Moving a loose impediment is not building a stance. If the stone was solidly embedded, then he would be penalized for breach of Rule 23. I would recommend using some care than that when moving such things. Just kicking things out of the way can be a bad habit to get into. 

I had to call a penalty on a player in a tournament last year for doing the same thing when his ball lay in a lateral water hazard. The ball was a considerable distance from the water, but inside of the area marked as a hazard. I was a rules official stationed at that location because it was common for players to hit their tee shots into this area. The player knew he was in the hazard, but just automatically did the same thing you describe, deliberately kicking some pebbles aside as he took his stance. He did it so unexpectedly that I didn't have a chance to stop him before he did it.


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## Big Hobbit

Fourputt said:


> If the stone was just a loose impediment then there is no penalty. Moving a loose impediment is not building a stance. If the stone was solidly embedded, then he would be penalized for breach of Rule 23. I would recommend using some care than that when moving such things. Just kicking things out of the way can be a bad habit to get into.
> 
> *I had to call a penalty on a player in a tournament last year for doing the same thing when his ball lay in a lateral water hazard. The ball was a considerable distance from the water, but inside of the area marked as a hazard. I was a rules official stationed at that location because it was common for players to hit their tee shots into this area. The player knew he was in the hazard, but just automatically did the same thing you describe, deliberately kicking some pebbles aside as he took his stance. He did it so unexpectedly that I didn't have a chance to stop him before he did it.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> I'm not sure whether or not you can tell a player beforehand unless he asks otherwise you might be guilty of giving advice... I don't know if its right or not, just a thought...


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## Fourputt

Big Hobbit said:


> Fourputt said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the stone was just a loose impediment then there is no penalty. Moving a loose impediment is not building a stance. If the stone was solidly embedded, then he would be penalized for breach of Rule 23. I would recommend using some care than that when moving such things. Just kicking things out of the way can be a bad habit to get into.
> 
> *I had to call a penalty on a player in a tournament last year for doing the same thing when his ball lay in a lateral water hazard. The ball was a considerable distance from the water, but inside of the area marked as a hazard. I was a rules official stationed at that location because it was common for players to hit their tee shots into this area. The player knew he was in the hazard, but just automatically did the same thing you describe, deliberately kicking some pebbles aside as he took his stance. He did it so unexpectedly that I didn't have a chance to stop him before he did it.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> I'm not sure whether or not you can tell a player beforehand unless he asks otherwise you might be guilty of giving advice... I don't know if its right or not, just a thought...
> 
> 
> 
> As a CGA rules official we are instructed to prevent a breach before it happens if such is possible. As a player I will try to do so if possible. Even in a tournament I would do my best to prevent a fellow competitor from incurring a penalty. Information on the rules is never "advice".
Click to expand...


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## Iris

Surtees said:


> It might be adviseable to mark your ball before lifting it just in case you have mistaking thought that you are in a relief zone when you may not be. This is just a thought I am not sure about it though


Good idea,and I will kepp them going.


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## broken tee

*where does the green or putting begin*

Please allow me to mis quote the rule: now if you're putting to the hole and the line is impeded,lets say a varment hole, you are allowed to move laterally. but as I had just turned on the Arnold palmer classic a young player had just gotten relief from a sprinkler head on the fringe of the green. I was always under the impression the rule applied to the physical putting surface, so where does the green and or putting begin under this rule. I believe rule 24?


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Please allow me to mis quote the rule: now if you're putting to the hole and the line is impeded,lets say a varment hole, you are allowed to move laterally. but as I had just turned on the Arnold palmer classic a young player had just gotten relief from a sprinkler head on the fringe of the green. I was always under the impression the rule applied to the physical putting surface, so where does the green and or putting begin under this rule. I believe rule 24?


Bob,

There is an allowed local rule which can be implemented by the committee. It allows for line of play relief for immovable obstructions which are near the green. It is usually applied on courses that have sprinklers which are on the fringe or fairway within 3 to 5 feet of the putting surface.


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## 373

Hi Rick - Check this out...

Page 48 of the February 2011 issue of Golf Digest, an article called "Perception vs. Reality."

Number 7, about when you can hit a provisional ball, in saying you can't hit one any time you like replies that the only time is when you are "virtually certain your ball is in a water hazard."

I'm curious... Is that correct in that it excludes other hazards and circumstances like forest lands or OB when you can't be sure whether your ball is still in or not?

Is the rule really such that you can play a provisional if you think you are in a water hazard, but must declare your ball lost and return to the tee under other circumstances?

Last week at Killian Greens, I pushed a drive that I felt had a 50/50 chance of clearing some trees, but the area is within 10 yards of houses that are OB. I declared a provisional and off we went, only to find my original drive barely in bounds, but with a chip out to the fairway, so I played the original ball, my understanding being that if it is found, the original ball is in play.

Other than from a case of being more courteous to the people behind us by not spending extra time to return to the tee, was I actually wrong?


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## Fourputt

DennisM said:


> Hi Rick - Check this out...
> 
> Page 48 of the February 2011 issue of Golf Digest, an article called "Perception vs. Reality."
> 
> Number 7, about when you can hit a provisional ball, in saying you can't hit one any time you like replies that the only time is when you are "virtually certain your ball is in a water hazard."
> 
> I'm curious... Is that correct in that it excludes other hazards and circumstances like forest lands or OB when you can't be sure whether your ball is still in or not?
> 
> Is the rule really such that you can play a provisional if you think you are in a water hazard, but must declare your ball lost and return to the tee under other circumstances?
> 
> Last week at Killian Greens, I pushed a drive that I felt had a 50/50 chance of clearing some trees, but the area is within 10 yards of houses that are OB. I declared a provisional and off we went, only to find my original drive barely in bounds, but with a chip out to the fairway, so I played the original ball, my understanding being that if it is found, the original ball is in play.
> 
> Other than from a case of being more courteous to the people behind us by not spending extra time to return to the tee, was I actually wrong?


You can only play a provisional ball if you believe that there is a chance that the original ball may be lost outside of a water hazard, or out of bounds. You were correct in playing the provisional when you did, and you were also correct in abandoning it when you found the original ball in bounds. Even if the original ball had been in an unplayable lie, you would have had to proceed with it under Rule 28. As soon as the original ball is found in bounds, the provisional ball is immediately abandoned.

You cannot just play a provisional ball anytime you want to. If there is no reason to believe that the original ball might be lost or OB, then playing a second ball assumes that you are declaring the original ball unplayable and you have proceeded under a penalty of stroke and distance. The second ball is then in play and the original ball is abandoned.


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## 373

Wow! That was quick!

Thanks Rick. Nobody challenged the way I went about it and it wasn't a tournament or anything, just 3 of us trying to learn some local knowledge about a new course we are going to be playing more frequently. 

It was just coincidence that I read that page in the Golf Digest a day later and somehow, focused on the phrase that suggested you only declared a provisional if you thought you were in a water hazard. I somehow recall a number of times during high school or college tournaments when someone would hit a ball into the woods and declare a provisional in case the original might be lost. 

From a standpoint of speeding up weekend play, I think it should be recommended as a local rule that you declare, hit and not spend extra time returning to the tee after a search.


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## Fourputt

Most players don't bother to return to the tee during a normal weekend round anyway. I'm even guilty of that myself. But then I play 95% of my golf on the same course (for 25 years now), so I know it very well and I know when I need to play a provisional ball. I rarely get tripped up and lose a ball unexpectedly. On an unfamiliar course, I try to use my head and play a provisional if there is the least possibility of the ball being lost. Sometimes they hide those OB stakes pretty well though, and I've gotten dinged on that. Then I usually just drop a ball and add 2 strokes if it's not a competition. That's not correct procedure, but it beats being an irritant to the groups behind you. And since that usually results in a score that I have to adjust for ESC anyway, it would be a waste of everyone's time for me to go back and hit again. :dunno:


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## Big Hobbit

Just a quickie.

The 5 min rule for looking for a ball. What happens if you declare it lost at the end of the 5 mins but find as you walk back to the tee?


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## 373

I think at the end of 5 minutes and once declared lost, it's lost for the sake of score, even if you actually find it later. Then you are required to play your new shot. You can't play your original, even with a penalty. How close am I Rick?

An aside... I once hit a ball into the top of a tree and never found it. About two weeks later, playing the same course, I hit my tee shot in proximity to the same tree and while waiting for the group ahead of us, I found my lost ball from 2 weeks previous, now visible in vines clinging to the tree. I knew it was mine because I had marked my initials on it to differentiate it from my partner's identical brand. I'd never done something like that before and one of the guys teased me that I should adjust my score from the previous round... As was said to the tuna - "Sorry Charley..."


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## FrogsHair

If more amateur golfers used the ESC in golf, a lot more time would be saved. Some golfers would never even make it the some of the greens using it. One problem I see with using ESC is that it should not be used to shave off penalty strokes. Penalty strokes should be added after the ESC is applied. If a penalty stroke is not counted, then why even apply it in the first place? I also believe that ESC should never be used during a competitive round by anyone. Just my own opinion, and I am obviously in the minority with that train of thought. It's not worth an argument, or discussion. :thumbsup:

Golf Handicap FAQ: What is Equitable Stroke Control?


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## stevel1017

pick it up and toss it, put it in your pocket or reuse it. No matter what you decide you are hitting 3 off the tee


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## stevel1017

FrogsHair said:


> If more amateur golfers used the ESC in golf, a lot more time would be saved. Some golfers would never even make it the some of the greens using it. One problem I see with using ESC is that it should not be used to shave off penalty strokes. Penalty strokes should be added after the ESC is applied. If a penalty stroke is not counted, then why even apply it in the first place? I also believe that ESC should never be used during a competitive round by anyone. Just my own opinion, and I am obviously in the minority with that train of thought. It's not worth an argument, or discussion. :thumbsup:
> 
> Golf Handicap FAQ: What is Equitable Stroke Control?


ESC is supposed to be used for calculating handicap only. You should record your total score and only adjust it when entering it for handicap
in a casual round I have no problem with it, but if we are playing for my money, I want you to finish the hole and record your natural total. Unless I am playing against my wife (you just cant fight city hall)

An interesting aside, in our Friday night league, to speed up play, max score on a par 4 is 8, and this usually isnt a problem, but I have seen some one take an 8 on the first hole, and then par the rest and still win low net. I do have an issue with that but those are the rules


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## Fourputt

As far as ESC is concerned, the score you shoot is your score. ESC is only applied after the round is over. If you are playing a competition or for a wager, then you are playing to your actual score. I know my friends would be a bit upset if we had a round of drinks on the line and I tried to say "No, I didn't make an 8 on that hole because I can only return a 7 for handicap." Instead I'd say "I'm buying today because my 86 is the worst score, but I'm adjusting that 8 to a 7 before I turn in my card with a score of 85."


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## FrogsHair

Rule change could spare some from disqualification - Golf News - Golf News & Articles | Golf Channel

I am about 75/25 in favor of this rule change. I like the adding strokes instead of DQing someone. My dislike is that I hope this is not the start of trend to start changing the rules of golf just to appease the players who are getting caught, or might get caught violating rules. 

Should the arm chair official who is camped out in front of a TV be able to call in and report a violation? Yeah, I don't have problem with that, although I don't think I would ever do it myself. I think the better fit would be more rules officials being available, who can watch over more of the tournament. 

Te game of golf is the last bastion of honesty, integrity, and sportsmanship in professional sports. I'd hate to see it go the way of some of the other sports, where rules are a hit, or miss application. 

Today's players carry a lot of clout as to when, how, and where they play. Due to the amount of money available now a day, I think as whole, if they had their way, they would change the rules of golf to benefit themselves in a more lucrative fashion. I just hope that the above change of the rules is not the start of this happening.


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## Big Hobbit

Mmmm, I can understand one of the reasons for the change, i.e. some players get lots of TV and run a greater risk of being pulled by a tv viewer whilst those with less coverage, who are further down the leader board, get an advantage.


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## broken tee

Reading the discussion I started looking at the rules, decisions and definitions. there is nothing that defines a fairway other than the queens english, as Fourputt stated its through the hole.I found that interesting, the other interesting thing is the number of players DQ for fixing divots. the point that I got out of the rules is a divot is part of the course and is not considered an obstruction or ground under repair.


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## Fourputt

Read the decision more carefully. Only one recent ruling could be affected by this decision, and it does NOT end the call in rules violations. This decision will only affect a very small portion of the viewer call ins which have been so controversial. Yes, it might have prevented Harrington's DQ.... might have, no guarantee. Harrington admitted that he knew his ball had "oscillated". That alone might be enough information for the DQ to still be applied. Each case will be decided on the facts available. Villegas would still have been DQ'ed because his act was something that a player who knows the rules would not have done. It might have saved Michelle Wie when she was caught dropping the ball about 6 inches closer to the hole. Again it depends on how the facts are viewed as to whether she could have known that she was dropping too close to the hole without the assistance of video review. The Craig Stadler towel incident from a couple of decades ago would not be affected by this decision.

This isn't a "Get out of Jail Free" card. The player is still responsible for knowing the rules, and rules violations which are caught by viewers who then contact the Tour will still be considered. Ignorance of the rules will not get the player a free pass. Only a situation where the player could not have reasonably have known that an action occurred which was in breach of a rule will be affected by this decision.


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Reading the discussion I started looking at the rules, decisions and definitions. there is nothing that defines a fairway other than the queens english, as Fourputt stated its through the hole.I found that interesting, the other interesting thing is the number of players DQ for fixing divots. the point that I got out of the rules is a divot is part of the course and is not considered an obstruction or ground under repair.


Bob, you can and should repair divots, but only if they are not in a position to affect your stance, lie, or swing. If any of those apply, then only repair the divot after you play your stroke. Each of the golf carts on my home course has 2 bottles of sand/seed mix on it for divot repair.

Care of the course is a prominent part of the Etiquette section of the rule book.


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> Bob, you can and should repair divots, but only if they are not in a position to affect your stance, lie, or swing. If any of those apply, then only repair the divot after you play your stroke. Each of the golf carts on my home course has 2 bottles of sand/seed mix on it for divot repair.
> 
> Care of the course is a prominent part of the Etiquette section of the rule book.


I don't dis-agree with you at all on care of the course. I always replace my divot or add sand and seed when its available. That is what I noticed about the couses in your area Rick, the carts all have sand and seed mix. 

I thought this was the thread disgussing divots either way its play the ball as it lay.:thumbsup:


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## broken tee

*What should I've done*

using rule 24 as the base I found myself between a protective screen for homes and the up slope of the green less than
6' to the short grass, so it was tight. the screen interfered with the back swing. I couldn't take relief for 30' left or right and current position as it would of been closer to the hole. Facing the hole; to my right was the treeline and the out of bounds fense and to my left a down hill slope opening up behind trees. What ever image you have of my situation it was simular to being in a ditch. I saw know choice but to hack my ball to the green. could I have use rule 24 or others to help me out?


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## Big Hobbit

If it states on the card that the fence is an immovable obstruction then you may take relief. If it doesn't say its an immovable obstruction then its an integral part of the course and its play it as it lies.

After that its the nearest point of relief but not dropping in a hazard or on the putting surface. Sometimes taking relief can mean you drop in an even worse situation, e.g. deep rough or with a tree(s) in the way, and its best just to play it as it lies.

If in taking "complete relief" the one club length would mean you end up dropping in a hazard you then get to drop the other side of the hazard - someone might correct me on that. I've seen Seve Ballesteros end up dropping 15 yds from where his ball originally ended up by clever use of the rules.


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## broken tee

Thanks Brian that help confirm my reason for playing as it lay. Your example os Steve Ballesteros is what I looking for in the use of the rules for a better chance of success. had I had a rule book I'd would of had the marshal complaining about slow play.


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## 373

If you don't mind me taking the rules thread off on a bit of a tangent...

Regarding the rules of amateur status... One of the benefits I've been offered at my new golf course job is equipment at cost. We were talking about Ping clubs the other day because 3 of us in the conversation play them. I mentioned how much I like my new G15 irons, but how I was a bit curious about the lie of my 20* hybrid. It looks upright to me. (The guys agreed when they saw it)

I said maybe I would ride up to Golfsmith to trade it in, but Manny, who is one of the pros who works the shop, said we have an account with Ping and I could get it for something like $115 instead of the retail price of $160.

Obviously, I would like a discount now and then, but I wouldn't care to lose my amateur status. I know we hear stories more about college students who get something free, but is there any rule anyone knows of that requires you to pay fair market value?

Under the circumstances, I'd be rather inclined to sell my black dot set and get measured for a new set fitted to me... extra long... lie set properly...

Anyone know?


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## Surtees

well your still paying for them so I dont THINK it should effect anything its just like buying something on special or of ebay cheap. I'd say go for it if have the cash its cheap not free so go for it.


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## Big Hobbit

It's up to the retailer what he sells at. If he's doing you a good deal, and without losing money, then you're ok. I guess he's not "using your likeness" to enhance his business. I don't know what the USGA set their limits at but in the UK its well over approx $750 in any one comp but I can't remember what the annual limit is..


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## Big Hobbit

Is there a rule about moving a divot that has previously been replaced? Today, my ball came to rest against the edge of a divot that was curling up. I could have tugged the divot but I was concerned that the roots from the grass had gone through into the soil below...


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## Fourputt

Big Hobbit said:


> Is there a rule about moving a divot that has previously been replaced? Today, my ball came to rest against the edge of a divot that was curling up. I could have tugged the divot but I was concerned that the roots from the grass had gone through into the soil below...


A completely detached divot lying on the ground is a loose impediment. A replaced divot is not. See Rule 13-2. There are several decisions under this rule which further clarify what can and cannot be done with divots.


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## Jasonking

Hi everyone, this is a great thread, Its amazing the things people come up with to save a few shots. I have even been ill advised by our Golf Pro on rules, you think they would know the rules but even they slip up sometimes. I now carry a small rules book in my bag for when someone comes up with some wild ideas. LOL


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## broken tee

Glad you like the thread, We've had some fun here trying to stump each other. One of our Moderators Rick is an excellent souece of information when it comes to rules, but golf fashion is another story. He is the one that changed my attitude for the rules and how the rules enhance the game.


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## Jasonking

I'm into that, I have every rules book that has come out in the last 5 years and I am always going through them. Here is a simple True or False. A Caddie may be shared between 2 players and give advice to both of them. True or False


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## broken tee

true under rule8-1


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## Fourputt

Jasonking said:


> I'm into that, I have every rules book that has come out in the last 5 years and I am always going through them. Here is a simple True or False. A Caddie may be shared between 2 players and give advice to both of them. True or False


If you really want to see the rules through history, this is the site to check out: Rules History

You can start in 1744 and move right through to the present day. It can be an interesting read.


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## Jasonking

Cool, lots of reading LOL Its hard enough to keep up with what is current. Looks interesting, will check it out, thanks.


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## broken tee

*using rule 24-1*

I'm sure this is a standard practice on all courses that the front of the green is staked and roped. I'm not sure if it means ground under repair or to force players to walk to the side. I did not drop the stake that was in my line to the pin, I hit a beautiful shot to the stake obviously losing a stroke. Do I have the right to drop these moveable objects even though they do not interfer with the swing or striking of the ball. looking at rule 24-1 it tells me no.


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> I'm sure this is a standard practice on all courses that the front of the green is staked and roped. I'm not sure if it means ground under repair or to force players to walk to the side. I did not drop the stake that was in my line to the pin, I hit a beautiful shot to the stake obviously losing a stroke. Do I have the right to drop these moveable objects even though they do not interfer with the swing or striking of the ball. looking at rule 24-1 it tells me no.


You can always move a movable obstruction. You can't take relief from an immovable obstruction for line of play. Note that the requirement for interference is only stated in 24-2, not in 24-1.


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## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> You can always move a movable obstruction. You can't take relief from an immovable obstruction for line of play. Note that the requirement for interference is only stated in 24-2, not in 24-1.


Its amazing Rick that the situations I run into and the things you've taught me about the rules I still screw myself when the rules would have possibly helped.


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## Big Hobbit

Saw a dq today, and the rumble is still going on in the club. Player takes his stance, and addresses the ball and grounds his putter behind the ball. He then lifts his putter and takes what I guess he believes is a practice swing. He then grounds his putter again, and then plays the ball. He gives his score to his marker, which is then entered onto his card. At this point one of the rules officials queried the score on the hole. The player reiterates the score he has given to his marker, and the rules official dq's him for not declaring the 'airshot.'

When I left the club the player, and his team mates, are also calling his marker a cheat for not querying the score he gave.

So what is the rule for for taking your stance and grounding the putter behind the ball, then taking a practice swing?


----------



## Fourputt

Big Hobbit said:


> Saw a dq today, and the rumble is still going on in the club. Player takes his stance, and addresses the ball and grounds his putter behind the ball. He then lifts his putter and takes what I guess he believes is a practice swing. He then grounds his putter again, and then plays the ball. He gives his score to his marker, which is then entered onto his card. At this point one of the rules officials queried the score on the hole. The player reiterates the score he has given to his marker, and the rules official dq's him for not declaring the 'airshot.'
> 
> When I left the club the player, and his team mates, are also calling his marker a cheat for not querying the score he gave.
> 
> So what is the rule for for taking your stance and grounding the putter behind the ball, then taking a practice swing?


He did not make a stroke. The definition of _stroke_ in the Rules of Golf is:



> Stroke
> 
> A "stroke" is the forward movement of the club made with the *intention* of striking at and moving the ball, but if a player checks his downswing voluntarily before the clubhead reaches the ball he has not made a stroke.


To be a stroke there must be intent to strike the ball. Since he was clearly not intending to hit the ball, the first pass was not a stroke.


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## stevel1017

unless his intent was to hit the ball and he missed, he in fact did not make a stroke, and therefore no penalty

Definition: Definitions from the Official Rules of Golf appear courtesy of the USGA.
Stroke: A "stroke" is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball, but if a player checks his downswing voluntarily before the clubhead reaches the ball he has not made a stroke.
source : Stroke - Definition from the Rules of Golf


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## stevel1017

haha Rick, to quick for me


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## Stretch

Had a rules question come up in todays round. What is the rule about how far back from the Tee markers you can put the ball. I know you cant put it in front of the line but is there a rule about how far back you can put it?


----------



## Fourputt

Stretch said:


> Had a rules question come up in todays round. What is the rule about how far back from the Tee markers you can put the ball. I know you cant put it in front of the line but is there a rule about how far back you can put it?


Two club lengths. Here is the definition of _teeing ground_ from the Rules of Golf:



> Teeing Ground
> 
> The "teeing ground" is the starting place for the hole to be played. It is a rectangular area two club-lengths in depth, the front and the sides of which are defined by the outside limits of two tee-markers. A ball is outside the teeing ground when all of it lies outside the teeing ground.


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## Stretch

Fourputt said:


> Two club lengths. Here is the definition of _teeing ground_ from the Rules of Golf:


Thanks Rick. :thumbsup: I will let my friend know the rule.


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## stevel1017

Here is one, I think I know it but want confirmation
during the club championship, I was unsure after the round if I scored a 4 or a 5 on the 10th hole, I told the guy who kept score to put me down for a 5, my thinking is if i shot 5 and took 4 I would be DQ'd, but if I shot 4 and took 5 then the 5 stands (he had me for a 4 on the card)
after reflecting on it I am sure I had a 4, but since I told him to put me down for a 5 that became my score for the hole
so my question is, does the 5 stand or am I DQ'd for an incorrect card?


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## Fourputt

stevel1017 said:


> Here is one, I think I know it but want confirmation
> during the club championship, I was unsure after the round if I scored a 4 or a 5 on the 10th hole, I told the guy who kept score to put me down for a 5, my thinking is if i shot 5 and took 4 I would be DQ'd, but if I shot 4 and took 5 then the 5 stands (he had me for a 4 on the card)
> after reflecting on it I am sure I had a 4, but since I told him to put me down for a 5 that became my score for the hole
> so my question is, does the 5 stand or am I DQ'd for an incorrect card?


The 5 stands. I did the same thing yesterday in the first round of my club championship. For the par 5 11th on my course I wrote down a 5 on my card but my marker wrote down a 6 on my official card. When I went back over it, I couldn't remember if I'd chipped up and one or two putted on that hole, so I had to take the 6.


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## Stretch

Hi Rick - Maybe you can shed some light on this one.

Found out how to calculate handicap but wondered where the 113 comes from in the equation? It is score - course rating x 113 / slope, right? 
Just curious what the 113 means or came from. :dunno:


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## Fourputt

Stretch said:


> Hi Rick - Maybe you can shed some light on this one.
> 
> Found out how to calculate handicap but wondered where the 113 comes from in the equation? It is score - course rating x 113 / slope, right?
> Just curious what the 113 means or came from. :dunno:


113 is just the mathematical "average" slope. Above 113 and your course handicap trends higher than your index; below 113 and your course handicap may be lower than your index. My home course slope is 120 from the middle tees, so most of the time my course handicap is 1 to 1.5 higher than my index. My current index is 13.8, and my course handicap is 15.


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## Stretch

Thanks Rick! You da man when it comes to the rules.:thumbsup:


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## broken tee

How are you to play what is known as a waste bunker. I've hear two opinions; play it as a bunker and its sandy area of the fairway so you can ground the club. what rule applies here?


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## Fourputt

First of all, the rules don't recognize anything called a "waste bunker". It's more often referred to as a waste area, since that doesn't confuse it with _bunker_, which the rules do recognize. Such an area is just part of _through the green_. As such, the player may ground his club, move loose impediments, declare the ball unplayable - the same as if the ball was in rough or other untended parts of the course outside of a hazard. 

Identifying waste areas is more difficult. Usually you have to ask someone on the staff. Sometimes bunkers are clearly designed to look different from sandy waste areas, but that isn't always true. When in doubt, treat it as a bunker.


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## broken tee

Thanks Rick; that explains why I couldn't find a rule. Seriously, after I get my arm fixed you ,me and the frog should play somewhere together.


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## Kabilos

I got one for you gentlemen. I was playing the front 9 with my brother and came up to a 175 yard part 3. This green has 2 traps (1 on each side), it had been raining quite a lot and I did not see exactly where his ball landed but it looked close to the bunker. As we approached it, the bunker was completely submerged in 3 feet of water. His ball was dead center in the middle of the sandtrap covered in water. 

What is the correct play on this? Not match / Tournament, just out having a guys day out. Would he consider it a water hazard, and take a drop plus stroke?

What would you guys do?


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## stevel1017

He is allowed to drop, still in the hazard at no penalty
however, if he can't get complete relief from the casual water, then he can drop out side the hazard at a one stroke penalty
or......
he can play it as it lies


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## Kabilos

stevel1017 said:


> He is allowed to drop, still in the hazard at no penalty
> however, if he can't get complete relief from the casual water, then he can drop out side the hazard at a one stroke penalty
> or......
> he can play it as it lies


I figured, as much. He didn't want to incur the penalty so he did go into the water and hit his ball.. hardest swing I've ever seen, through 3 feet of water and connected, and his ball popped up and rolled into the cup.

I've never thrown a club, I did however drop my club and shake my head in total amazment.. 

He will never live it down either.. I've heard it at least a hundred times in the last 3 months.


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## broken tee

FourPutt quized me on this to test my skill using the rule book and If I get this wrong you might find me missing in the pole creek area of Colorado or trying to breath through a cow pie. Look at Rule 25-l abnormal ground conditions.


(ii) In a Bunker: If the ball is in a bunker, the player must lift the ball and drop it either:
(a) Without penalty, in accordance with Clause(i) above, except that the nearest point of relief must be in the bunker and the ball must be dropped in the bunker or, if complete relief is impossible, as near as possible to the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole, on a part of the course in the bunker that affords maximum available relief from the condition; or
(b)
Under penalty of one stroke


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## Fourputt

Kabilos said:


> I got one for you gentlemen. I was playing the front 9 with my brother and came up to a 175 yard part 3. This green has 2 traps (1 on each side), it had been raining quite a lot and I did not see exactly where his ball landed but it looked close to the bunker. As we approached it, the bunker was completely submerged in 3 feet of water. His ball was dead center in the middle of the sandtrap covered in water.
> 
> What is the correct play on this? Not match / Tournament, just out having a guys day out. Would he consider it a water hazard, and take a drop plus stroke?
> 
> What would you guys do?


You have 2 choices. 

1) You drop in the bunker at the point where there is the least interference from the casual water with no penalty.

2) Drop outside of the bunker:


> (b)Under penalty of one stroke, outside the bunker, keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the bunker the ball may be dropped


These are your only options aside from stoke and distance.


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## AOInc

Think it will be really fun to follow the rule of the week. later on we can discuss, how useful was the rule


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## 373

AOInc said:


> later on we can discuss, how useful was the rule


And after that, we can discuss who we should kill for not making a local rule to get out of having to keep to some USGA rule that made us lose a bet. :cheeky4:


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## 373

I was just watching Morning Drive on The Golf Channel. Annika Sorenstam was on and they asked her about a rule she thought should be considered for change. She said the rules making bodies should consider something to do when you hit a drive in the fairway and it rolls into a divot. I never thought about that before.


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## Fourputt

DennisM said:


> I was just watching Morning Drive on The Golf Channel. Annika Sorenstam was on and they asked her about a rule she thought should be considered for change. She said the rules making bodies should consider something to do when you hit a drive in the fairway and it rolls into a divot. I never thought about that before.


It's been discussed many time on other golf forums. It's perhaps the most common complaint I see with amateur golfers. I could be wrong, but I don't expect to see any change there. The reason is that it becomes very difficult to determine just exactly what constitutes a divot and when is a divot healed enough to no longer qualify. Are we going to start here and eliminate everything which could constitute a bad break in the game? Maybe we have start eliminating good breaks too so that it keeps balance in the universe.

Is that defect in the grass really a divot? Is it really a partially healed divot? How do you know? Are we going to give relief from every little blemish in order to avoid those decisions? These are the problems you run into when you try to write such a rule. I think that the situation arises rarely enough that nothing really need to be done about it. I've hit out of a lot of divots in the last 40 years, and it really isn't that hard to do.


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## broken tee

DennisM said:


> I was just watching Morning Drive on The Golf Channel. Annika Sorenstam was on and they asked her about a rule she thought should be considered for change. She said the rules making bodies should consider something to do when you hit a drive in the fairway and it rolls into a divot. I never thought about that before.


Has anyone viewing a PGA or LPGA event seen the divots replaced or repaired during play? Rick I know its been discussed many times and its hard to argue your logic but it seems to be a common complaint that everyone has to live with for now.


----------



## 373

I understand all the arguments on both sides. I was just surprised to hear Annika open it up for conversation.


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## 373

As for replacing divots, I know of one club that used to do it. They went out with little rectangular sod cuttings on a couple carts and replaced divots in the fairways every morning. I don't know if they still do it, but I don't think I've ever seen a PGA Tour course that did it.


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## Fourputt

DennisM said:


> As for replacing divots, I know of one club that used to do it. They went out with little rectangular sod cuttings on a couple carts and replaced divots in the fairways every morning. I don't know if they still do it, but I don't think I've ever seen a PGA Tour course that did it.


The best way to repair a divot is with a sand and seed mixture. I've see those which just use sand, and I don't see how that can be as effective. Sometimes they use green sand, but all that does is make it look green - doesn't heal the scar any faster. By using a sand and seed mix (my home course uses a 5:1 sand to seed ratio), the divot heals faster than any other method I've seen. Most replaced divots just die because there isn't enough root structure left to sustain growth. Every cart has 2 jugs of mix on it, and some players even use them. 

Since my home course is owned and operated by a recreation district which is in part tax supported (the course makes a profit, but the district as a whole is a quasi government entity), we get to make use of minor lawbreakers who have been sentenced to community service. They are often sent out with a cart, a scoop and a bucket of mix to work on filling divots on tee boxes and fairways. Then too, when the employees play, we often toss an extra jug of mix on the cart and fill divots while waiting for the group in front to clear the green. I will sometimes go through 2 or 3 bottles on each nine. These are simple ways to help a course keep up with divot creation.


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## 373

We have sand buckets on the carts, but they don't mix any seed or fertilizer in it. BTW - The club I mentioned was Cebu Country Club in the Philippines.

Generally, we guess 1 out of 5 people will drop sand in a divot, based on how few carts we have to reload with sand between rounds. Our rangers take sand with them as they make their rounds on weekends and will drop sand in a divot when it appears not to have sand in it.


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## 373

Rock - I don't think I saw an answer to my question before, back when we started talking about dropping a ball that rolled into another unplayable lie...

When taking relief from an unplayable lie, can you be made to repeatedly take penalties if your drop rolls into unplayable lies, presuming it didn't roll more than a club length or closer to the hole?

I thought you were entitled to relief with 1 stroke penalty, but that relief was primary and not something that could be duplicated, just like when a pro takes a drop and the caddy catches it before it rolls back into a lake.

What's the story?


----------



## Fourputt

DennisM said:


> Rock - I don't think I saw an answer to my question before, back when we started talking about dropping a ball that rolled into another unplayable lie...
> 
> When taking relief from an unplayable lie, can you be made to repeatedly take penalties if your drop rolls into unplayable lies, presuming it didn't roll more than a club length or closer to the hole?
> 
> I thought you were entitled to relief with 1 stroke penalty, but that relief was primary and not something that could be duplicated, just like when a pro takes a drop and the caddy catches it before it rolls back into a lake.
> 
> What's the story?


You do get penalty relief, but for an unplayable lie, relief is not guaranteed. Where you drop may still be unplayable, or the ball may roll right back into the same place again. If so then you take another penalty and another drop (or other relief option if necessary). There are 3 relief options under Rule 28, and you can choose any of the 3. If you find your ball deep in the woods where you would have to use the 2 clublengths option 5 times to get clear, then you would receive the penalty stroke each time. In that case the only reasonable choice might be to take stroke and distance and return to the previous spot and play again from there. Or you might get clear of the woods by following the line drawn from the hole through the point where the ball lay unplayable and going back on that line. 

As a matter of fact, relief from an unplayable lie is never guaranteed, even when taking free relief from an obstruction or abnormal conditions (GUR, casual water, etc). In the case of relief without penalty, if you choose to take relief you must take complete relief from the condition, but that doesn't guarantee that the dropping area at the nearest point of relief will result in a playable lie. That point might be in deep, unmowed fescue, or in the middle of a bush, or dead behind a large tree. You don't get to choose a spot which is favorable to you, you only get to drop within a clublength of the nearest point of relief from the condition. That point is a very specific and limited spot on the golf course.

I've hit from cart paths quite a few times when the free drop point would result in a very poor lie or in an obstructed line of play. I've also taken the stroke and distance penalty for an unplayable lie when the other options did not allow me to escape my predicament. You have evaluate each situation as it comes and determine the best procedure.


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## broken tee

broken tee said:


> Has anyone viewing a PGA or LPGA event seen the divots replaced or repaired during play? Rick I know its been discussed many times and its hard to argue your logic but it seems to be a common complaint that everyone has to live with for now.


I had my question answered at the asian pacific. yes the caddie does.


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## Big Hobbit

The new bunker rule coming in on Jan 1st; from Jan 1st you will be able to smooth the bunker before you play providing you don't improve your lie, stance or swing path. What happens if you smooth the bunker, then play your shot and end up on the sand you've just smoothed?


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## golfjunk

Big Hobbit said:


> The new bunker rule coming in on Jan 1st; from Jan 1st you will be able to smooth the bunker before you play providing you don't improve your lie, stance or swing path. What happens if you smooth the bunker, then play your shot and end up on the sand you've just smoothed?


I think this is ok. It is a strange rule....


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## broken tee

golfjunk said:


> I think this is ok. It is a strange rule....



I agree this is quite strange. it souds like it was written for players like me: Ah S**T! oh well its in a smooth area


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## Fourputt

Big Hobbit said:


> The new bunker rule coming in on Jan 1st; from Jan 1st you will be able to smooth the bunker before you play providing you don't improve your lie, stance or swing path. What happens if you smooth the bunker, then play your shot and end up on the sand you've just smoothed?


You also cannot rake or improve the sand on your intended line of play. That hasn't changed. If you hit really fat and only move the ball a few feet, then you still have to live with whatever the condition was before your shot. The reason for the change is more to allow players to help keep the course in better condition - meaning that you can rake out old footprints which are unlikely to have any effect on your shot while you wait your turn. Rule 13-2 still applies. You can't make any changes to the bunker surface which might influence your stroke or the resultant lie on your intended line of play. That doesn't mean that you would be penalized if you shank the shot 45 degrees off the intended line, or if it hits a tree and lands behind you in an area where you just raked. 

The line of play is only the line you intend for the ball to take and a reasonable distance to either side.


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## UNNDERGROUND GW

Good Post! The rules are a bit confusing at times


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## GemmaD

Great post, especially for a new member like me.


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## broken tee

*Never have seen this happen, just had to ask*

Can you believe it? there is snow on the ground, so I'm watching recaps of the Masters and the thought of what is considered slow play and is there a penalty? I'm only aware of the 5 minute rule for a lost ball.


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> Can you believe it? there is snow on the ground, so I'm watching recaps of the Masters and the thought of what is considered slow play and is there a penalty? I'm only aware of the 5 minute rule for a lost ball.


Hmmm, I never saw this post - must have been lost in the spam. Anyway, better late than never.

There really can only be a penalty associated with slow play if your association has a policy in place which is enforced in competitions. See Rule 6-7 for more information.


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## Fourputt

New rules question since this thread has been nearly on life support for 10 months. 

Scenario:

You are playing a 520 yard par 5 hole. There is a 220 yard long lateral water hazard left of the fairway starting at the tee, and the fairway cuts left around the end of the hazard. Also there is a group of 40-50 foot tall trees at the end of the hazard so a carry must be more like 260 yards with a high trajectory to clear. The hazard extends left to the course boundary and the boundary is marked by a chain link fence with about 15 feet of dry land between the fence and the water, but that strip of land is still part of the hazard.

You attempt to hit your tee shot with a draw to carry the hazard and set up a reachable approach shot, but instead hit a bit of of a duck hook. The ball crosses into the hazard about 100 yards from the tee, but carries across the water and you see and hear the ball hit the chain link fence, but no one sees the where the ball deflects to. When you get the the area where the ball hit the fence, you don't see it on the ground. The area out of bounds is grown in weeds and grass, and nothing is visible there either. There is no way the that ball could have defected far enough to get out of the hazard unless it went through the fence and lies out of bounds, but there are also tall weeds on the hazard side of the fence, so the ball could easily be lost there. 

Question - what is your procedure at this point?


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## stevel1017

I am going to guess procede as a lost ball, go back and re-tee


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## stevel1017

oh and maybe weaken your grip a bit


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## broken tee

if I understand the scenario: I'd proceed under 20-5, 26-2b and 27-1b&c

The player moved forward, so a provisional wasn't declared. since the area is part of the water hazard and the ball wasn't found under the 5 minute rule. the player would then drop at the nearest point where the ball crossed the hazard With a one stroke penalty.


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> if I understand the scenario: I'd proceed under 20-5, 26-2b and 27-1b&c
> 
> The player moved forward, so a provisional wasn't declared. since the area is part of the water hazard and the ball wasn't found under the 5 minute rule. the player would then drop at the nearest point where the ball crossed the hazard With a one stroke penalty.


Ah, but the ball struck the boundary fence. Can you just make the assumption that it deflected back into the hazard rather than passing through the fence and landing out of bounds?


----------



## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> Ah, but the ball struck the boundary fence. Can you just make the assumption that it deflected back into the hazard rather than passing through the fence and landing out of bounds?



I think I see your point: Since the player is not sure where the ball is and its not mentioned that the area is ESA or the fence is TIO. then the player would return to where the last stroke was made under 27-1 referenced under 26-1.


----------



## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> I think I see your point: Since the player is not sure where the ball is and its not mentioned that the area is ESA or the fence is TIO. then the player would return to where the last stroke was made under 27-1 referenced under 26-1.


You are right that 27-1 is the applicable rule. Rule 26 is not involved except to determine whether it is known or virtually certain if the ball is in the hazard. Since KVC is not met, you have no choice but to revert to 27-1 and deem the ball lost.

The hole described is the 6th hole on my home course, and this is a not uncommon issue there. When the ball heads toward the fence, we automatically play a provisional ball.


----------



## broken tee

Fourputt said:


> You are right that 27-1 is the applicable rule. Rule 26 is not involved except to determine whether it is known or virtually certain if the ball is in the hazard. Since KVC is not met, you have no choice but to revert to 27-1 and deem the ball lost.
> 
> The hole described is the 6th hole on my home course, and this is a not uncommon issue there. When the ball heads toward the fence, we automatically play a provisional ball.


 I read all the referring rules and decisions to finalize the answer...Do I get candy now


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## broken tee

*Rule 20-5, 26-1 and 27-1 in the Masters*

I understand the rule 26-1, but what confuses me if I was a judge is, 27-1 that Tiger used, as close to the original spot. 6 feet or 2yards behind the original spot is two club lengths in my opinion and the rule is not specific on distance, but if he was closer to the hole then I see a violation. What am I missing in my thinking?:dunno:


----------



## Big Hobbit

broken tee said:


> I understand the rule 26-1, but what confuses me if I was a judge is, 27-1 that Tiger used, as close to the original spot. 6 feet or 2yards behind the original spot is two club lengths in my opinion and the rule is not specific on distance, but if he was closer to the hole then I see a violation. What am I missing in my thinking?:dunno:


First of all he should have been dropping as close to where he played his last shot from, or from the drop zone but he chose to play from further back so that he could generate more spin(stop) on his ball. By his own admission he dropped a couple of yards further back to gain that extra spin, and in so doing admitted he was seeking an advantage from the drop - DQ.

Having played from the wrong spot it should have been a 2 shot penalty, which has we have seen has been applied. Further to that, he had signed for a lower score than he should - DQ.

The crux of him still being able to play is rule 33(I think) which allows a competition committee to waive the disqualification in favour of the original penalty, i.e. the 2 shot penalty. So therefore he is quite entitled to tee it up in the 3rd round.

Then its a debate about the integrity of the player and the essence of the game. He sought to gain an advantage... that's very poor in my opinion. If I was in a similar position I'd withdraw, no if's or but's.

Whatever he achieves in the competition is sullied by what he has done. But perhaps it is the true measure of the man. He has form outside of golf for not being as squeaky clean as once thought, and this reaffirms that.


----------



## 373

I'm not sure I don't blame the rules officials to some extent. 

I think they waived the DQ because they couldn't initially make up their minds before he signed his card. Judging by Fred Ridley's coments, it sounds like they felt one way before and changed their minds this morning after discussions with Tiger. 

I am pretty sure there are tournament rules that dictate the procedures for signing the card at the end of the day. Remember Michelle Wie being disqualified from a tournament when she entered the scorer's tent, then left to greet a friend and then came back in? That was apparently considered leaving without signing her card regardless that she came back within minutes. I might guess if Tiger hadn't been advised of a penalty, once he entered whatever area they use to finish their cards, he was probably obligated to complete that process and would have had no idea he would later be charged 2 strokes.

Under circumstances like that, I think it would have been unfair to DQ him. Whether he should have withdrawn is another matter and it'll be discussed for quite a while.

Can the rules officials DQ someone for signing an incorrect card if they advise them one way and change their minds after the card is signed?


----------



## broken tee

Big Hobbit said:


> By his own admission he dropped a couple of yards further back to gain that extra spin, and in so doing admitted he was seeking an advantage from the drop - DQ.
> 
> 
> Then its a debate about the integrity of the player and the essence of the game. He sought to gain an advantage... that's very poor in my opinion. If I was in a similar position I'd withdraw, no if's or but's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DennisM said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure I don't blame the rules officials to some extent.
> 
> I think they waived the DQ because they couldn't initially make up their minds before he signed his card. Judging by Fred Ridley's coments, it sounds like they felt one way before and changed their minds this morning after discussions with Tiger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I need to waffle here. I tend to agree with Brian, if he admitted it was planned then he should be DQ. Honesty is what this game teaches. Yet I question Dennis's point on the officials. Did they themselves violate or give improper advise to Tiger? I'm going to agree with Brian, Tiger should have been DQ.
Click to expand...


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## 373

It's the timing of it. Looking at video, they didn't feel he did anything wrong. They advised him of such before he finished his round and he signed his card.

He then went to the press tent and when his comments about backing up a couple yards were reported, they called to ask him to meet with them this morning. Given the information that he intentionally dropped a couple yards back with intent of improving his shot, they gave him two strokes and waived the DQ, supposedly because they felt it wasn't fair to hit him with it overnight. I'm not sure I totally agree with that, but I would have to research DQs to see if there has been a precident for this.

For some reason I thought you were allowed to drop as far back as you wanted on a line keeping the spot where your ball last crossed the hazard between you and the pin.

Anyway, that's the chronology as I understand it.

Should he have been DQed for signing an incorrect score card? I don't think so because it would have put the burden on the officials to get the decision right earlier than they did. Having been advised one way, it would have been grossly unfair to DQ Tiger. That's their story. They said it was 10 PM last night before they contacted Tiger's people for the meeting this morning.

If I understand what one of our pros at Killian Greens was talking about this morning, the wording that says the player is supposed to drop "as close as possible" to the spot of the previous shot should not be defined any differently than damn near trying to drop the ball in your divot mark. Where it rolls seems to have pretty exacting definition, basically a semi-circle to the sides or behind the spot, no closer to the hole, within a club length.

Some may argue Tiger could have dropped on his divot and the ball could have rolled near the same spot a few feet back, but, and this is a big but... if the driver is the club by which you measure a club length, there is no driver 6 feet long. Therefore, 2 yards back cannot in any way fall under the definition of "as close as possible"...

Should Tiger have withdrawn? I think so.


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## Big Hobbit

Several years ago Padraig Harrington was DQ'd for signing for the wrong score following an incident in the Abu Dhabi HSBC. He'd accidently nudged his ball when removing his marker. The ball had moved less than a 1/4 inch and he hadn't replaced it. He'd shot a 65 and was leading the competition.

This saw the introduction of a rule(33 I think) that allows a competition committee to waive the DQ in favour of the lesser penalty. Unfortunately this brings in an element of subjectivity, i.e. its based on the competition committee's opinion. And then there is the question of fairness and justice.

The rules as they were, though potentially harsh, had no ambiguity. Sadly, as they now stand there's the chance of the furore that now we now see with the Tiger incident.

I like Butch Harmon's comment. "Tiger should have withdrawn to save the integrity of the game but Tiger has quite rightly adhered to the competition committee's ruling. Time to move on and get on with the game."

The failing is the competition's committee for its interpretation of the incident and the use of the rule(33). For example, although the rule allows them to waive the disqualification it also allows them to impose a DQ if they deem that a player has not acted in the spirit of the game. In Tiger's case he sought to gain an advantage - DQ. He didn't say he's kept the place he'd played from between him and the flag, which would have been a misinterpretation of another rule. He said he went back because he wanted that distance and lie - and I wonder if he went back to guarantee he didn't end up in his divot hole...


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## 373

There's no way he could defend himself if someone suggested he didn't want to be in his divot hole because he admitted he had a totally different plan for the second shot.

Like I said, I understand the committee's decision not to DQ him. To put it most bluntly, I think they refuse to admit their inability to have gotten it right the first time and they made a decision based on marketing the tournament on television for the benefit of their sponsors. As my buddy David commented to me by text, there are Tiger rules and then there are rules for everyone else.

Do I agree with it, no, not necessarily. I simply understand where they are coming from. 

I do agree with you that the subjective spirit of the rule was broken. For the good of the game, he should have withdrawn.


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## Fourputt

Here is the chronology of events:

Tiger hits into the water and after checking out the drop zone decided that it was a bad place to try a short pitch from, so he chose to return to the original spot. Since the rule says "near" the original spot he thought that gave him some flexibility as long as he stayed within 2 clublengths. He was wrong, but didn't know that he was wrong because of the ambiguity of the word "near", and because of the 2 clublength drop rule that applies in other situations under Rule 26-1. He was mixing up the procedures for Rule 26 and Rule 27. 

The possibility of an error was called to the attention of the committee before Tiger finished playing the 18th hole. They reviewed it and couldn't see any breach, so they waved it off. They dropped the ball in not approaching Tiger and discussing it with him before he returned his card, since they were aware of the possibility of a problem. In his post round interview Tiger stated that he had dropped 2 yards farther back so he could make the same swing and not worry about hitting the flagstick again. When that came to the attention of the committee, they took a closer look at the case on Saturday morning, and decided that there was an infraction after all, but because they hadn't acted before Tiger returned his card on Friday, it was their fault that he had returned the incorrect card. For that reason the disqualification penalty was waived and they only applied the 2 strokes for playing from a wrong place.

Nobody was showing any favoritism. If the committee had acted in a timely manner, Tiger would not have returned an incorrect score, he'd have been assessed the same 2 stroke penalty, and we wouldn't even be talking about it. If there is any fault it is with the committee, but they made an honest mistake, and dealt with it the only way that they could.

I'm really tired of all this crap about Tiger rules. That is pure poppycock. If it was anyone but Tiger or one of the leaders, he wouldn't even have been penalized since the shot wouldn't be on TV and the player wouldn't have convicted himself on the air.


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## broken tee

So, he should of dropped an arms length of his diviot


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> So, he should of dropped an arms length of his diviot


He should have dropped on the divot to be correct, but it is allowed to make that about a 12 inch semicircle. If the spot is not precisely determinable, then as close as you can to the original spot, but not closer to the hole.


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## Fourputt

Well, it's official. The anchored stroke is going the way of the dodo bird. As of January 1, 2016, no more anchored putting.


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## Surtees

That's good news Anchors are two heavy to swing anyway......


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## broken tee

*Marking the Ball*

clarify 20-1 the rule states behind the ball and I heard this during an LPGA (junior) golf class.

if the hole is north the marker has to be placed south on the ball. what's wrong with north east and west as long as the ball is placed in the same spot


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## edricwage

*California Golf*



King Woods said:


> Great idea! Rules are always useful. Rules keep you from being penalized for ignorance and help you maintain full awareness of the legality of your competitor's actions.


Agree! Rules are very useful.it makes the game more exciting and deliverable.


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## 373

I learned about an interesting rule having to do with the design of golf clubs, something comes into play mostly with putters. I think this is just bizarre.

If a putter shaft is bent 2 ways, for example, with an offset and downwards to create the lie of the club, both bends have to be equal to each other. Seems pretty dumb to me, something someone dreamed up for no good reason I can fathom.

I have a Scotty Cameron Squarebock putter I got cheap on sale, a used club in like new condition. It sat pretty upright, so I heated the shaft where it bent and made the bend slightly more flat. Playing with it yesterday, the Assistant Pro noticed the discoloration on the shaft. I hadn't bothered with jeweler's rouge to polish it off, waiting until I was perfectly happy with how it sat.

Somehow, he knew about this rule and showed it to me in a book back in the proshop. 

Can anyone tell me why this rule is important enough to exist?


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## Fourputt

My guess would be that they had to set a limit somewhere, so that's what was settled on. The rules for putters is already much more flexible than for other clubs, and my guess is that at some point someone went overboard in a design, so they set a limit on it. That is how most of the club restrictions have come about.


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## 373

Probably right. As my brother-in-law says, "There's lures that catch fish and there's lures that catch fishermen." God knows I've seen some weird looking putters and I'll admit to having had one or two.


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## Ernie Dimeo

As rules help us to keep away from banning, as well as help us to know more about the Ideas of the Admin.


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## broken tee

*Rule 17*

I ran into a situation and I'm not sure if I'm right or wrong on when to pull the pin. The guy I was playing with chipped on to the green and while the ball was still rolling I pulled the pin. Now based on my understanding of rule 17 I was right and wrong. so, when should you pull the pin when tending?


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## 373

It sounds like we need a bit more information.

Did he ask you to tend the pin? In that case, regardless where he makes the shot from, you are obligated to remove the pin.

If he didn't ask you to tend it, but you did and pulled it, I am guessing you shouldn't have.

Was this a match and was he your partner or your opponent?

Inquiring minds want to know. :dunno:


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## broken tee

*rule 17*



DennisM said:


> It sounds like we need a bit more information.
> 
> Did he ask you to tend the pin? In that case, regardless where he makes the shot from, you are obligated to remove the pin.
> 
> If he didn't ask you to tend it, but you did and pulled it, I am guessing you shouldn't have.
> 
> Was this a match and was he your partner or your opponent?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know. :dunno:





Dennis: It was just two of us, friendly game, and he was chipping on to the green. I just pulled the pin without his permission while the ball was in motion it wasn't going into the hole. yes, I violated the doctors orders and played. now I'm paying the price. My shoulders hurt like a SOB.


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## 373

Maybe Rick will chime in here with a correct answer, but if it was just you and a buddy playing for fun, not a match, it sounds like no harm, no foul. It your buddy's ball wasn't going near the hole, you didn't actually affect his score. Sure, maybe you should have waited until his ball stopped, but it just doesn't sound so terrible to me.


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## broken tee

DennisM said:


> Maybe Rick will chime in here with a correct answer, but if it was just you and a buddy playing for fun, not a match, it sounds like no harm, no foul. It your buddy's ball wasn't going near the hole, you didn't actually affect his score. Sure, maybe you should have waited until his ball stopped, but it just doesn't sound so terrible to me.


I've got to review the rule again and decisions, unless Rick can simplify my action on the green. Rick is my mentor, I'm just a lousy student.


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## Fourputt

broken tee said:


> I ran into a situation and I'm not sure if I'm right or wrong on when to pull the pin. The guy I was playing with chipped on to the green and while the ball was still rolling I pulled the pin. Now based on my understanding of rule 17 I was right and wrong. so, when should you pull the pin when tending?


Sorry to be so late with this, I must have missed it. 

If you are tending the flagstick with the player's knowledge and authority, then you are required to remove it before the ball strikes it. This is true no matter where the player is playing from. 

You are not to attend the flagstick without the player's authorization. If the player can see you, and you are standing near the hole (this usually means within arm's reach), then you are deemed to be attending the flagstick with his authorization, even if the player has not asked you to do so. I usually ask if he wants it attended to be sure that we are both on the same page. If he says no, then I walk away so that it can't be misinterpreted.

If you are not attending the flagstick, you may not walk over and remove it when the ball is moving (2 stroke penalty on you). This is true even if the stroke is made on the putting green. The only exception to this is if the flagstick has been removed and is lying on the green unattended. It may then be moved even while the ball is in motion.

If the ball strikes the flagstick from a stroke on the putting green, whether attended or not, the 2 stroke penalty is on the player, even if the person attending the flagstick fails to remove it. If the ball strikes any attended (and authorized) flagstick or the person attending it, the player is penalized 2 strokes. (make sure that you have confidence that the person you have authorized to attend it will remove it in a timely manner)


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## tonyj5

It's all over. Kristin Gillman defeats Jiwon Jeong 7 and 6


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## bobbygolferpro

I just read on an informative guide about "golf rules" that it's not necessary to mark the original position of the ball when taking relief, but there is no obligation on the player to do so.


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