# PGA rule rumor



## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

Has anyone heard of the PGA considering banning either sqware or round grooves, not sure which, on wedges from tournament play


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

It's not a rumor and it's not a PGA rule. The USGA is changing what constitutes a conforming groove shape for iron grooves. It goes into effect in 2010 and will be enforced starting then for PGA Tour and other high level competitions. For us ordinary Joes the old clubs will be grandfathered in until 2024, at which time the current square or box grooves will no longer be legal even for club level competitions. Any new irons bought after Dec 31 2009 will have the new modified groove shape. 

My Titleist AP2 irons that I got just last month already have the new grooves.


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

Fourputt said:


> It's not a rumor and it's not a PGA rule. The USGA is changing what constitutes a conforming groove shape for iron grooves. It goes into effect in 2010 and will be enforced starting then for PGA Tour and other high level competitions. For us ordinary Joes the old clubs will be grandfathered in until 2024, at which time the current square or box grooves will no longer be legal even for club level competitions. Any new irons bought after Dec 31 2009 will have the new modified groove shape.
> 
> My Titleist AP2 irons that I got just last month already have the new grooves.


So what is the intent of this new rule?


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## Surtees (Sep 11, 2007)

thanks rick as always great info something everyone should like into when buying new clubs now. Although most new clubs have the u grooves in them now from the ones I've seen.


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

Surtees said:


> thanks rick as always great info something everyone should like into when buying new clubs now. Although most new clubs have the u grooves in them now from the ones I've seen.


Things like this are always good to know, but if you're just learning and technology changes time and money wasted. This isn't going to affect me as a weekend warrior. So to complain as if it would what's next plastic tees only?


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## Surtees (Sep 11, 2007)

broken tee said:


> Things like this are always good to know, but if you're just learning and technology changes time and money wasted. This isn't going to affect me as a weekend warrior. So to complain as if it would what's next plastic tees only?


nope because the world is running out of resource they are going stop making tee and you are going to have to throw your ball up in the air and hit it just before it hits the ground.:headbang:


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

Surtees said:


> nope because the world is running out of resource they are going stop making tee and you are going to have to throw your ball up in the air and hit it just before it hits the ground.:headbang:


I've been waiting for the shot and you finally came through...I threw some dumb shots on a couple threads and no responce. I thought maybe your wicket got stuck somewhere


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

broken tee said:


> So what is the intent of this new rule?


The rule will have zero effect on you so I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, but if you're having trouble sleeping and want a soporific to help with that, you can read THIS. :laugh: It's the USGA's research findings from the extensive testing they did during the last couple of decades. 

The gist is that the only players affected to any significant extent are the top level players with high swing speeds and solid ball striking abilities. Even then, those players will only be affected when playing full shots from the rough. Us ordinary blokes will see virtually no difference at all. If you play a ball with a urethane cover then you will see some change on shots from the rough, but if you play anything less than a premium ball, then the difference is negligible.

If you're worried, stock up a on a couple of your favorite wedges now, then you'll be set until 2024...


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## Surtees (Sep 11, 2007)

Fourputt said:


> The gist is that the only players affected to any significant extent are the top level players with high swing speeds and solid ball striking abilities. ...


thats differently not you Bob


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

Fourputt said:


> The rule will have zero effect on you so I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, but if you're having trouble sleeping and want a soporific to help with that, you can read THIS. :laugh: It's the USGA's research findings from the extensive testing they did during the last couple of decades.
> 
> The gist is that the only players affected to any significant extent are the top level players with high swing speeds and solid ball striking abilities. Even then, those players will only be affected when playing full shots from the rough. Us ordinary blokes will see virtually no difference at all. If you play a ball with a urethane cover then you will see some change on shots from the rough, but if you play anything less than a premium ball, then the difference is negligible.
> 
> If you're worried, stock up a on a couple of your favorite wedges now, then you'll be set until 2024...


I'm so stressed out about this Rick I'm just going to have to play more.


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

Surtees said:


> thats differently not you Bob


nor is this you


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## Surtees (Sep 11, 2007)

I have to agree there


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## 373 (Jun 9, 2006)

In 2024, I'll be 75 years old. At that point, I think I'll be happy to be alive, much less playing golf, much less hitting the damned ball at all, much less putting any spin on it. If I somehow miraculously still have an old wedge with square grooves in it by then, I will be happy to be elevated from where I am now, (not playing), to the exalted status of a player who cheats.


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

DennisM said:


> In 2024, I'll be 75 years old. At that point, I think I'll be happy to be alive, much less playing golf, much less hitting the damned ball at all, much less putting any spin on it. If I somehow miraculously still have an old wedge with square grooves in it by then, I will be happy to be elevated from where I am now, (not playing), to the exalted status of a player who cheats.


Remember Dennis the best wood in the bag is the pencil


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## Surtees (Sep 11, 2007)

thats it Dennis always look on the bright side of life


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## 373 (Jun 9, 2006)

broken tee said:


> Remember Dennis the best wood in the bag is the pencil


I've been checking out all the online golf equipment sales companies for the right carbon graphite shafted ballpoint pen.


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

DennisM said:


> I've been checking out all the online golf equipment sales companies for the right carbon graphite shafted ballpoint pen.


What kind of grips are you putting on?


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## blue3715 (Aug 29, 2006)

Surtees said:


> nope because the world is running out of resource they are going stop making tee and you are going to have to throw your ball up in the air and hit it just before it hits the ground.:headbang:


Our club gives out these new biodegradable tees.. it's nice theat they don't break that much (they are quite flixible) so less broken tees all over the place, but man they get flung 30-40 feet sometimes!


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## Surtees (Sep 11, 2007)

so that means that for Bob his tee would get more distance them his ball


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## Surtees (Sep 11, 2007)

blue3715 said:


> Our club gives out these new biodegradable tees.. it's nice theat they don't break that much (they are quite flixible) so less broken tees all over the place, but man they get flung 30-40 feet sometimes!


Sounds like a good idea for the tees to enviro friendly what brand are they?


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## memorex88 (Apr 8, 2006)

That is a great idea!


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

Surtees said:


> so that means that for Bob his tee would get more distance them his ball


I want you to know my tees are always waiting for me at the next box. I've trained them well. :laugh:


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

Back to the actual topic of this thread...

I got this from another golf forum. It's a good summation of the research and conclusions arrived at by the USGA on the groove issue.


Scott Smith, USGA

Far Hills, N.J. - This past August, after nearly three years of research and testing, and a lengthy period of review and comment by manufacturers and other interested parties, the United States Golf Association announced revisions to the Rules of Golf, placing new restrictions on golf club grooves.
*
Why grooves, and why now?*


The revisions, which involve the cross sectional area of grooves on all clubs, with the exception of drivers and putters, and limit groove edge sharpness on clubs with lofts equal to or greater than 25 degrees (generally a standard 5-iron and above), are designed to restore the challenge of playing shots to the green from the rough by reducing backspin on those shots. The initial focus of the rules will be competitions involving professional golfers, starting in 2010.

"Our research shows that the rough has become less of a challenge for the highly skilled professional and that driving accuracy is now less of a key factor for success," said USGA Senior Technical Director Dick Rugge. "We believe that these changes will increase the challenge of the game at the tour level, while having a very small effect on the play of most golfers."

“It used to be that driving accuracy was as important a predictor of success on the PGA Tour as was putting,” added USGA President Jim Vernon. “Over the past couple years, the correlation between driving accuracy and success on the tour has been almost zero. So we know that the way the game has been played, the skills that are required to succeed at that level, have been changed.

“One way of describing the goal of the USGA’s Equipment Standards Committee is to make sure that skill and not technology remains the dominant factor to success in the game.”

The rules apply to clubs manufactured after Jan. 1, 2010, the same year that the USGA will enforce the new regulations through a condition of competition for the U.S. Open, U.S. Women’s Open and U.S. Senior Open Championships and each of their qualifying events. All USGA amateur championships will apply the new regulations through the condition of competition, after Jan. 1, 2014.

"The scientific research on the effect of grooves on spin and the ability of highly skilled professional golfers to control shots from the rough was very compelling," said Jay Rains, USGA vice president and chairman of the Equipment Standards Committee. "The USGA and The R&A took additional time to consider fully the potential ramifications for all levels of golfers. In particular, we took care to minimize the impact on amateurs who actively compete in club and local competitions, as well as other golfers who do not want to replace recently purchased clubs."

Clubs manufactured prior to Jan. 1, 2010 that conform to current regulations will continue to be considered conforming to the USGA Rules of Golf until at least 2024. This includes clubs purchased after that date from manufacturers’ existing model ranges. (According to the Darrell Survey of consumer golf equipment only 2 percent of irons in use are older than 15 years.) So long as these clubs continue to be conforming they may be used for establishment and maintenance of a USGA Handicap Index.




"Ultimately, we came to the conclusion that the path forward was to get the top-level professional tours under the new groove regulations as soon as possible and to phase in the next level of amateur competition four years later, in 2014," said Rains. "This means that clubs you own today will still be conforming for top-level amateur competition for another 5 1/2 years and, for other competitions, conforming until at least 2024, if not indefinitely."

Although currently conforming clubs with V-grooves will continue to conform under the new rules, the new rules do not mandate the use of a V-shape. The new regulations permit club designers to vary groove width, depth, spacing and shape to create clubs that conform to the new groove rules. In addition, all Ping EYE 2-irons manufactured before March 31, 1990, will continue to be treated by the USGA as conforming to the Rules of Golf, and will be acceptable for all USGA competitions.

The PGA Tour, the European PGA Tour, the LPGA, the PGA of America and the International Federation of PGA Tours have all indicated their support for the new regulations on grooves. Each of these organizations, as well as Augusta National Golf Club, which conducts the Masters, have told the USGA and The R&A that they intend to adopt the condition of competition, applying the rules for their competitions, beginning on Jan. 1, 2010.

Said Jim Furyk, one of the game’s premier wedge players, of the new rules changes: “I'm all for it, really. I think that they can't keep making golf courses longer, because not every course has a $20 million budget to keep it going…. So I guess the way to attack it would be to, if you can limit the amount of spin on the ball and make the guy play from the fairway and hit a more crisp and a better golf shot, it's probably a good avenue.”

Phil Mickelson, no slouch with a wedge either, also came out in favor of the rules changes: “I have no problem with that because I feel like it's a challenging thing for a player to judge shots out of the rough. Is the ball going to spin? How is it going to come out?”

“It's going to help all the guys who drive the ball better,” Kenny Perry was quoted in USA Today as saying. “The premium will be to hit the fairway off the tee so you can spin the ball better on the shots into the greens.”

USA Today’s Jerry Potter added this of the straight-shooting Ryder Cupper: “[Perry] thinks the rule will bring course management into the game, as well as force players to be more aware of their shots out of the rough. Using the former V-groove clubs, players often got shots they said were ‘jumpers,’ where the ball rocketed off the face of the club because grass got between the face and the ball.

"I remember in high school and college when I used to hit 8-irons that would fly 210 yards out of the rough,” said Perry. “It will be funny watching when the new rules begin. The people sitting behind the greens had better wear hard hats.”

Indeed, the research undertaken and published by the USGA demonstrates that for shots from the rough with urethane-covered balls (the type of ball most used by tour pros), modern, sharp-edged U-grooves result in higher ball spin rates and steeper ball landing angles than the V-groove designs used predominantly in the past. The combination of a higher spin rate and steeper landing angle results in better control when hitting to the green. Shots from the rough become more similar to shots from the fairway, creating less challenge for shots from the rough.

“They identified a problem, or at least an issue, then undertook a research program that turned out to be world-class,” said Jim Vernon of the Research and Test Center, a state-of-the-art facility on the campus-like USGA headquarters in Far Hills, N.J. “And at the end of the process, they had very convincing evidence that the change in grooves from the V- to the U-shaped allowed elite players to do a lot more with controlling the ball out of the rough than they could do in the 1980s, before the new U grooves came into play.”

“Then Dick Rugge and his staff set about considering, ‘Well, if we wanted to present the same challenge to elite players that was presented back in the 1980s, how could we do it?’" said Vernon. “And they tested all sorts of club-ball combinations to try to figure out how that could be accomplished. Fabulous process. I’m also proud of the fact that the process continued to work as we went out with the ‘Notice and Comment’ to manufacturers, in which we got some very good feedback from some of our manufacturers about manufacturing problems with what we were proposing. The Notice and Comment period really meant something, and it worked.”

So hang on to that trusty old wedge of yours for your weekend games. Chances are you’ll wear it out long before having to think about trading it in. But come 2010, head for the grandstands to see the best players in the world competing on a newly leveled playing field, where keeping it in the short grass is rewarded and where the once-dreaded “flyer lie” in the rough again poses a true test of an elite golfer’s mettle. Is it going to be exciting to watch the best players in the world try to find their new groove? You bet, but take Kenny Perry’s advice, and don’t forget your hard hat.

Scott Smith is the USGA's Director, Editor of Communications. E-mail him with questions or comments at [email protected].

Continued on next post due to character limitation...


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

Continued:



*Grooves: Myth Or Fact?*

MYTH: The new groove regulations will make success more difficult to achieve for the recreational golfer.

FACT: Most golfers will experience little, if any, change in their golf game because the new grooves only affect shots from the rough that hit the green, and these shots are made far more often by Tour players than by typical golfers. The rules change also has proven to have very little effect on the performance of the surlyn-covered balls that make up more than two-thirds of the golf balls sold in the U.S.

MYTH: Professional golf will be less exciting to watch because players will not have as much control on their shots into the green.

FACT: The new groove regulations will only serve to enhance the excitement of professional golf by re-focusing players on the skills of driving accuracy and efficient course management. The USGA brought the PGA Tour into the process at an early stage of its research and they strongly support this change. The PGA Tour believes that increasing the challenge for shots from the rough will provide additional benefits to play – and spectators – by allowing greater variety and challenge in course setup.

MYTH: Recreational and professional golfers will have to purchase all new clubs to conform to new regulations.

FACT: Recreational golfers will be permitted to use clubs made prior to the new Rule implementation date where the USGA Rules of Golf apply until at least 2024. Top-level professional competitors will play under the new regulations beginning in 2010.

MYTH: The groove regulations are a trial balloon for more drastic regulations planned for golf balls.

FACT: There are no current plans by the USGA and The R & A to revise the Rules of Golf governing the ball. The USGA considers all factors contributing to ball distance on a regular basis. The USGA believes that current golf ball performance and its current equipment standards regarding golf balls continue to maintain the integrity of the game. The responsibility to continually and accurately test that belief is aggressively accepted by the USGA and accomplished by a constant focus on developing the most modern testing methods in the industry.


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