# DQ'ed For Not Signing Card - The Rule?



## 373 (Jun 9, 2006)

I don't know every detail about Michelle Wie not signing her card and being DQ'ed, but over at a guitar forum I participate in, which is proliferated by golfers too, there is a hot conversation going on about whether the punishment fits the crime.

Someone who knows all the details about Wie's situation, please fill me in, but I was curious how everyone felt. It sounds like she left the scorer's tent and returned to sign her card... 

Is disqualification the proper penalty for not signing your card.

Keep in mind, we have three issues here. If you sign for a higher score, you are stuck with it. You get DQ'ed if you sign for a lower score or don't sign at all.

Some of the suggestions at the other forum have been that signing for a lower score should incur an adjustment of the score plus a two shot penalty, but that unless it makes you miss the cut, you can continue in the tournament.

Nobody has suggested an improved version of keeping a higher score you signed for.

A lot of people feel if you don't sign, there should be remedies like contact by a tournament official who using a time clock, (precedent being slow play clock), gives you a certain amount of time to sign your card... all sorts of variances on that one.

Since a lot of mistaken scores on cards aren't discovered until the next day, I asked the question about what to do if someone signed for a lower score during the second round and they were the last person, alone in 70th place to make the cut. If they had signed for 1 stroke stroke more, they would still be in 70th place, but with ties, other people would have stayed in town and been able to make a check that week. One person's error might have affected the earning power of other professionals.

What do you think?


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

*signing the score card*

The USGA Rules leave no doubt with me that it is up to the competitor to ensure that the card is accurate signed and returned to the commitee. Just like working with the IRS there is no forgivness just penalties.
I think I understand the incident with Cink he was honest with the officials after the round and reported the infraction the next day and he was dis-qualified. This is a positive about Golfers they are honest and it doesn't give them their just rewards.


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## Surtees (Sep 11, 2007)

Yes sometimes golf is a bit to strict for my liking maybe a fitting penalty for this could of been a 2 stroke penatly if you forget to sign your card. It's not like we are all super human and never forget anything.


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

Michelle Wie DID sign the card, but she did not do so as prescribed by the LPGA Hard Card. There is a roped off area around the scorer's tent at most LPGA tournaments. The players are required to sign and return their cards *before* leaving that roped off area. They cannot leave then return and sign. She left her card with one of the officials in the scorer's tent, and left. She was apparently outside of the roped off area when the official chased her down and got her to sign the card. It was a bit later that the incident was brought to the attention of the committee, and the disqualification was handed down. 

Just as with the rules, it's player's responsibility to know and understand the conditions of the competition. Rule 6-6b states:



> b. Signing and Returning Score Card After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible.
> 
> Penalty for Breach of Rule 6-6b: Disqualification.


Ms. Wie did not follow the process required by the LPGA of every competitor. Thus she again paid the ultimate penalty for not following the Rules. The PGA Tour has a similar condition. The Player is responsible for knowing and following the conditions of the competition just as he or she is responsible for knowing the Rules of Golf. There is no acceptable excuse. Ms. Wie needs to take a USGA Rules seminar and get her act together.


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

Fourputt said:


> Michelle Wie DID sign the card, but she did not do so as prescribed by the LPGA Hard Card. There is a roped off area around the scorer's tent at most LPGA tournaments. The players are required to sign and return their cards *before* leaving that roped off area. They cannot leave then return and sign. She left her card with one of the officials in the scorer's tent, and left. She was apparently outside of the roped off area when the official chased her down and got her to sign the card. It was a bit later that the incident was brought to the attention of the committee, and the disqualification was handed down.
> 
> Just as with the rules, it's player's responsibility to know and understand the conditions of the competition. Rule 6-6b states:
> 
> ...


Rick: Thats a pretty passionate statement. shouldn't the rule change to a fine.
Bob


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

Surtees said:


> Yes sometimes golf is a bit to strict for my liking maybe a fitting penalty for this could of been a 2 stroke penatly if you forget to sign your card. It's not like we are all super human and never forget anything.


I've been playing competitive golf (in a course affiliated Men's club) for 20 years. In that time I've NEVER failed to verify and sign and return my card in a timely manner. I have to do so in a crowded, noisy clubhouse restaurant with guys recounting war stories, etc., all in all a very distracting environment. Ms. Wie has the additional advantage of a specific area in which to do so, where the media isn't allowed. Nothing to take her mind off the job at hand. To leave that tent without signing her card wasn't just an omission, it strikes me as being startlingly stupid. I find more sympathy for someone who inadvertently signed an incorrect card, but to leave the area without signing it at all is just unbelievable. 

Sorry, but signing and returning your scorecard is so fundamental to competitive golf that I find no excuse and no sympathy for it. And there is nothing wrong with the Rule. The player has to attest to his score, and it has to be done in specific location and in a timely manner to assure that there is no impropriety. I keep hoping that Ms. Wie will learn something from one of these mistakes she keeps making, but I'm not holding my breath.


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

Fourputt said:


> I've been playing competitive golf (in a course affiliated Men's club) for 20 years. In that time I've NEVER failed to verify and sign and return my card in a timely manner. I have to do so in a crowded, noisy clubhouse restaurant with guys recounting war stories, etc., all in all a very distracting environment. Ms. Wie has the additional advantage of a specific area in which to do so, where the media isn't allowed. Nothing to take her mind off the job at hand. To leave that tent without signing her card wasn't just an omission, it strikes me as being startlingly stupid. I find more sympathy for someone who inadvertently signed an incorrect card, but to leave the area without signing it at all is just unbelievable.
> 
> Sorry, but signing and returning your scorecard is so fundamental to competitive golf that I find no excuse and no sympathy for it. And there is nothing wrong with the Rule. The player has to attest to his score, and it has to be done in specific location and in a timely manner to assure that there is no impropriety. I keep hoping that Ms. Wie will learn something from one of these mistakes she keeps making, but I'm not holding my breath.


Rick: I have to honor you conviction on the rule its very well stated I can't give you a good argument.
Bob


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

broken tee said:


> Rick: Thats a pretty passionate statement. shouldn't the rule change to a fine.
> Bob


In my opinion.... no, it shouldn't change. When 99.9% of players can do it correctly week after week, you can't change a rule just to accommodate one headliner. Since golf started being contested at stroke play instead of match play, the scorecard has become integral to determining the results of a tournament. The player and his marker must both attest to the correctness of the score, and it must be done as prescribed by the tournament committee. Failure to do so means that the player does not have a valid score. Without a valid score to return there is no choice but disqualification. :dunno:

The rule is so easy to follow that I can't understand how anyone who is half aware could screw it up... nor can I understand why every time a pro does screw it up, someone wants a rule change. This ain't rocket science.


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

Fourputt said:


> This ain't rocket science.


You have seen me putt on fast greens yet


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

broken tee said:


> You have seen me putt on fast greens yet



When you walk onto the green with your laptop with the advanced calculus program on it, then I know you are a lost cause.


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

Fourputt said:


> When you walk onto the green with your laptop with the advanced calculus program on it, then I know you are a lost cause.


Let me clarify: My last round; my ball had boosters on it. Took me 10 holes to jetison the boosters:laugh:.


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## 373 (Jun 9, 2006)

Fourputt said:


> In my opinion.... no, it shouldn't change. When 99.9% of players can do it correctly week after week, you can't change a rule just to accommodate one headliner.


Nobody is suggesting a special case should have been made for Michelle Wie, but in the guitar forum, the non-golfers among us all seemed to agree that DQ was a punishment that didn't fit the crime.

Among the golfers there, it was something that we just seemingly accepted because the rule was older than most of us, I guess. Like Rick, I have played enough competitive golf at a variety of levels to say that signing a scorecard is just as much a part of tournament golf as putting out in medal play. I don't disagree with the rule as written, but sometimes the perspective of an outsider, in this case a few non-golfing guitar players, might lend an interesting perspective to the passionate among us.

I just wondered if anyone could come up with a creative suggestion about how to vary the penalty, if not DQ. Personally, I was thinking about score adjustment and a stroke penalty for making scorers work overtime. I wonder how tournament hosts might feel if Tiger got DQ'ed and for however many days there were left in the tournament, the gate receipts dropped like a rock?

Rick - Thanks for letting me in on exactly what happened. I heard the headline, but was traveling and didn't get the full story. If I understand what you are telling me, it was amatter of geography, for lack of a better word. Do I understand correctly that she went beyond the scoreer's tent ropes and THAT caused the DQ? Would that mean if she had stayed inside those ropes in proximity to the tent, she would have NOT been DQ'ed? Wow... pretty interesting stuff.


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

Dennis: Rick is right about the rule being very clear and you don't need a PHD to understand the rules, but as you pointed out the rule is more mature than you and I, maybe it should change to fit the situation or that's the rule just deal with it . Look how rules in other sports have changed over the years. I diagree with the use of video replay in football the Referee calls the play and his word is final.


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

The point is that if you haven't followed the process laid down by the committee (and the Rules of Golf) for returning your card, you don't have a valid score. There is no way to "adjust" a score that isn't even recognized. DQ is the only real possible penalty. Harsh??? Yes. But I never heard of a player making that mistake more than once. 

If you lessen the penalty, you open the door for abuse. If a player is just hovering above the bottom of their field, then they can do as they wish because 2 more strokes won't significantly change their situation. Disqualification takes away the paycheck, and even the last player in the field isn't going to risk that frivolously. Look at how the players abuse the system when they are doing poorly before the cut. At least two players walked off the course at Royal Birkdale after 9 holes. That not only got them DQ'ed, but it took away the opportunity that 2 alternates would have had to play in the British Open. Michelle Wie (yep, her again) "withdrew" from an LPGA event rather than risk shooting a score that could have barred her from play for a couple of years. John Daly has simply walked off the course several times when things weren't going his way. 

I think that the penalty for such a childish act should be punishable by more than just DQ. If it was my decision, those golfers would be barred from playing in the Open for at least 5 years. If it happened in a regular tour tournament, they should be censured by the particular tour's governing body, to include fines and/or suspension. If a player doesn't want to play, then let an alternate have a chance. 

So IMO, DQ is a fair and just penalty for failure to return one's card in the manner prescribed by the tournament committee.


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## Surtees (Sep 11, 2007)

I do agree with some penalty I just thought DQ was a bit harsh and yes I agree it's not that hard to sign your card IT'S PRETTY BLOODY SIMPLE ACTUALLY. The rule have been layed down by the committee and have to be followed. I just think that the penaly should be looked at.


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