# Chipping Carry vs Roll



## FrogsHair

Tomasi, and Adams have a distance formula in one of their books for using a specific club for a specific chipping distance. Those of you who only use one, or two clubs for all your chip shots won't find this meaningful. Those of you who, like me, use different clubs for different chipping distances might find it useful. It involves a little math in the beginning. 

First piece of info is there are two constants. One is the never changing landing spot, on the green, for all chip shots. This spot is 1' on the green. It never changes in this formula. The individual golfer might use a landing spot 1', 2' or 3' on to the green, but which ever the the golfer uses, it will never change for all chip shots. The second constant is the #12.

There are two variables in this formula. Both are measured in steps, or the golfer's stride. The golfer's stride should be as close to 3' (1 yard) as possible. In most cases this 3' stride will be longer than the golfer's normal, natural stride distance. 

The first variable is the distance in steps (strides) from the ball to the landing spot on the green. This distance will vary from shot to shot. 

Next is the distance in steps (strides) from the landing spot to the hole. This distance will vary from shot to shot. 

Here's the scenario. Your ball lies 3 steps off the green, from the landing spot. The hole is located 6 steps past the landing spot. This gives the golfer a fraction of 3/6 which reduces to 1/2. Take the #2 and subtract it from the constant # 12, and you get 10, or a 10 iron which is a PW

If the shot formula was 3' steps to the landing spot, and 12 steps to the hole, it would look like this. 3/12 reduces to 1/4. 12-4 = 8, or an 8 iron 

Now before anyone wigs out on me for how much time this iron selection process would take, here's how this really should work. After practicing this method, over a period of time, the golfer will see the "steps" as "parts". The golfer will see 4 part carry, and 8 parts roll which equals a PW. (4/8 reduces to 1/2; 12-2=10 or a PW. I have been using this method so long that when I walk up to a chip shot, I always see 1 part carry and the variable parts of the roll. I might see 1 carry, and 8 parts roll, which is a 4 iron. On my next chip shot, I might see 1 part carry, and 3 parts roll, which equates to a 9 iron. It takes me about 10 seconds to see the shot, and pick the corresponding club.

This works for me because I use the same stroke, which is also my putting stroke for most, if not all of my chip shots while letting the different iron lofts do all the work. The only changes I make are when the chip shot might be running up hill, or down hill to the hole. In those instances I would use a more, or less lofted club. If the greens are faster, or slower than normal, again I would use a more or less lofted.

Now suppose the golfer's landing spot on the green at the 1' spot has some damage, a hump, or something that makes it unusable. I just extend the landing area farther onto the green. What was 1 part carry, and 4 parts roll, (8i) will become 1 part carry, and 2 parts (PW) roll since I need to carry the ball farther onto the green, and will need less roll. 

The last thing I personally do different is I extend the roll distance to spot about 1' past the hole.. By doing this I never leave a shot short of the hole.
Hopefully this is not to confusing to some. If so just let know your confusion.:thumbsup:


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## KrudlerAce

*Thanks*

Thanks for sharing, that's an interesting formula for working out the right club to use around the greens.

I usually stick to the 8, 9, PW & SW clubs around the green but can now see the benefit of perhaps using a longer club should the appropriate shot be required.


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## Fourputt

Too complicated for me. I "feel" the shot, pick the club, find where I want to land the ball, then make the swing that accomplishes that - and usually the ball is on the way in less than 30 seconds. The problem with formulas is that the lie, elevation, slope, green speed, etc., all add variables which still require the use of a sense of feel which you only develop with time and experience. I don't think I've ever known a good mechanical player who was as good as a good feel player. 

Good golf takes imagination, and players who rely on mechanics and calculation usually lack that creative imagination which is so essential to my game.


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## Big Hobbit

I think the theory is great but how much time does it add to a round pacing up to the flag and back? And what happens with different types of greens, links 'v' parkland, and if you play on a Sunday evening almost 2 full days since the greens were cut. 

At the end of the day there's more than 101 ways to skin a cat. If it works for some then that's great.


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## FrogsHair

With practice, and play, the golfer eventually only sees 1 part carry, and so many parts roll. So in essence, through eye sight, the golfer is getting a "feel" for the shot at hand. The golfer sees the shot, which consist of the carry part, and the roll part(s), and picks the club for the shot. If turf conditions require a club change the golfer factors that in also. Not much different than you would with your links, parkland, slow, or fast greens scenarios. You'd either add, or subtract club loft. If you and I were playing, and I used this method, you'd never know I was doing all this stuff. When the round is important, I never wait until I get to the ball to read my next shot. I start looking at it while walking to the ball. By the time I get to ball, I already have my mind made up what my next shot will consist of. Actually you'd think I played pretty fast, on, and around the green. :thumbsup:. 



Big Hobbit said:


> I think the theory is great but how much time does it add to a round pacing up to the flag and back? And what happens with different types of greens, links 'v' parkland, and if you play on a Sunday evening almost 2 full days since the greens were cut.
> 
> At the end of the day there's more than 101 ways to skin a cat. If it works for some then that's great.


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## Surtees

THat makes sense to me and I agree the first few times yu use it might be slow but then it would be come a natraul part of your game. It's just like after you make a change to your swing it takes some time to apdat to it.


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## Big Hobbit

Big Hobbit said:


> I think the theory is great but how much time does it add to a round pacing up to the flag and back? And what happens with different types of greens, links 'v' parkland, and if you play on a Sunday evening almost 2 full days since the greens were cut.
> 
> At the end of the day there's more than 101 ways to skin a cat. If it works for some then that's great.





FrogsHair said:


> With practice, and play, the golfer eventually only sees 1 part carry, and so many parts roll. So in essence, through eye sight, the golfer is getting a "feel" for the shot at hand. The golfer sees the shot, which consist of the carry part, and the roll part(s), and picks the club for the shot. If turf conditions require a club change the golfer factors that in also. Not much different than you would with your links, parkland, slow, or fast greens scenarios. You'd either add, or subtract club loft. If you and I were playing, and I used this method, you'd never know I was doing all this stuff. When the round is important, I never wait until I get to the ball to read my next shot. I start looking at it while walking to the ball. By the time I get to ball, I already have my mind made up what my next shot will consist of. Actually you'd think I played pretty fast, on, and around the green. :thumbsup:.


If its without all the pacing back and forth then this is pretty much what I do. I'm usually looking to get the ball back on the ground/green as soon as possible, that way it doesn't get affected as much by that dreaded variable you find on a links course... wind. Depending on the amount of carry, I'm using anything from 7 iron down to SW. Anything beyond that and there's too much ground before the green and I'll dial back up to playing a full SW.


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## FrogsHair

In the end it matter little which system a golfer uses when they have to a chip shot to get up and down for bogey, par, or better. For the most part every golfer sees the shot in their own way, factors in the distance, other variables, and then chooses a club.

The scenario I provided is pretty regimented in the beginning, and could be a bit time consuming on the golfer's part. Eventually though, with practice and play, the golfer will stream line it to fit their own pace of play. Fast to slow, everyone has their own pace of play they settle into, which of course they are entitled to. 

I'd say that if a golfer has a short game chipping (average) handicap of 2.75 strokes or higher, they need to look for a different way to chip. At the very least, they need to practice the method they are using more often. Their goal with chip shots is to get that average chipping number down to 2.25 or lower.


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## ChrisDowning

*A Good Exercise and Starting Point*

I think the exercise to work out carry v roll is a great way to stick near to the priciple of keeping the ball on the green as much as possible. Harrington did a great piece for the BBC golf coverage when he demonstrated an example of getting to the hole from about twenty yards - a pitch with a sand iron, a chip carrying halfway, a chip landing just on the green and rolling the rest amd a putt from the fairway onto the green. And in that order they finished closer and closer - keeping the ball down was the way - so the low chip was the most reliable. (On this occasion the fairway was well cut and easily putted.) The formular works prety well but as pointed out, it does need to be adjusted for each situation. (I did laugh though at the suggestion there's no time to measure, just hit it. Surely the way to leaking at least 6 shots per round?). At the very least I feel I can look at a chip and work out the yardage just by mentally pacing it out if its over thirty yards - but below that it just takes a bit of planning to fit in the pacing as others are arriving at the hole, or just gaps in the play so I'm ready to take my shot when my turn. There's a 6 8 10 version of this fomula as well - but I find this one better. Easier to use over 5 yards + as a short chip is a much finer touch shot anyway. But at the very least its a great practice regime a bit like the Pelz clock dial pitch method.


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## bigwave916

I was taught a version of this chipping method at a John Jacobs golf school back in the 90's. It involves using a chipping stroke that the golfer controls with a "pocket to pocket" chipping motion. That is to say back swing until your hands are near your right pocket and swing through until your hands reach the front pocket. On the practice green before a round you would take your 9 iron and three balls then hit all three using this stroke on a level portion of the green, pace off the average distance this stroke produces. For me it's about 15paces usually. 

On the course I walk to the flag and then pace back to my ball. It doesn't take a lot of extra time because sometimes it's on your way to the ball anyway and other times you can do it while waiting for others in your foursome.

For every 5 paces greater distance and add a club. (8 Iron for 20, 7 iron for 25)I drop down 5to pitching wedge or 10 to sand wedge for shorter distance. Obviously you have to allow for uphill and downhill but I find that it's usally about one club either way. I've hit chip shots with my 4 iron before and I think this is a great technique, especially for newer golfers still trying to develop feel around the greens.

This shot gets the ball rolling on the green and gives you consistent distance that leaves most shots in 1 putt range.


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## 373

I fall in the camp of those who tend to use the same club for most shots around the green. Unless I have a long chip uphill, I'll almost always use my sand wedge. On an uphill chip, I'll reach for a pitching wedge.


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