# If you can change one rule of golf which one rule u change?



## marwin24 (Sep 10, 2009)

say fudge the rules of golf . If you know golf etiquette the rules will apply themselves Gentleman


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## Surtees (Sep 11, 2007)

I would change the rule that doesnt allow you to pick your ball up on the fairway to remove dirt/mud of it. Still replacing it in the same spot that it was.


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

I'm pretty much ok with them as they are. 




Surtees said:


> I would change the rule that doesnt allow you to pick your ball up on the fairway to remove dirt/mud of it. Still replacing it in the same spot that it was.


There really isn't any such rule, Luke. Some rules procedures allow you to clean the ball, some don't, but there is no overall rule that prohibits the player from cleaning his ball. In fact there is even a local rule that can be invoked by the committee if course conditions warrant it that DOES allow the ball to be cleaned anytime it lies through the green. However, it should only be invoked when the course is in such a condition that it is necessary for fair play. Occasionally having to deal with a little mud on your ball is just a part of the game. 

This is the specimen local rule:



> b. Cleaning Ball
> 
> Conditions, such as extreme wetness causing significant amounts of mud to adhere to the ball, may be such that permission to lift, clean and replace the ball would be appropriate. In these circumstances, the following Local Rule is recommended:
> 
> ...


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## Surtees (Sep 11, 2007)

oh ok I thought that you were only allowed to lift your ball on the green other then hazards of course cool thanks for that. And yes I meant when there was a patch of mud on your ball not just a little dirt. Some of the fairways here have a few bald spots on them as there are restrictions on watering so when it does rain from the heavens some spots can become a bit muddy.


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

I was under the same impression that the ball could only be lift on the green or to identify the ball. thanks Rick


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## Surtees (Sep 11, 2007)

that scary Bob we both had the same thought path...


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

Surtees said:


> that scary Bob we both had the same thought path...


Great minds work alike


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

The most basic principle of the game of golf is that you play the ball as it lies. In such a case you can't clean it, you can't move it, you can't even touch it except in the act of making a stroke. There are some necessary relief procedures which do allow you to lift and clean the ball before dropping it. There are some procedures which even allow you to substitute a different ball before dropping (but be careful here... if you substitute a ball (and make a stroke at it) when it's not allowed, it's a 2 stroke penalty for playing a wrongly substituted ball - See Rule 15-2). 

However there are some times when you are allowed to lift the ball but you are NOT allowed to clean it, and in those cases it is a 2 stroke penalty for doing so. If you are requested to mark and lift your ball by another player because your ball interferes with his stroke, and your ball lies somewhere other than on the putting green, then you may NOT clean it. Watch a pro on TV occasionally when this comes up. He will hold the ball carefully between thumb and forefinger, in clear sight all the time, so that he can't be accused of accidentally cleaning the ball. If you have to mark and lift your ball to identify it, you can only clean it as much as is necessary to see your identifying mark.


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

Good grief Rick. we've had some great discussions on rules, but when you play in tournament do you carry the rule book? I enjoy the heck out of this. Yes, I've started to notice that the pro's follow certain procedures with referees and never made a connection until Luke and I tried to play stump the Rick.:thumbsup:


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

broken tee said:


> Good grief Rick. we've had some great discussions on rules, but when you play in tournament do you carry the rule book? I enjoy the heck out of this. Yes, I've started to notice that the pro's follow certain procedures with referees and never made a connection until Luke and I tried to play stump the Rick.:thumbsup:


Yes I always carry the Rules of Golf in my bag. But I rarely have to refer to it, because I DO know the correct procedures from most situations. Generally, I only need to check the book if someone else has messed up and we need to figure out how many penalty strokes he's incurred, or to show proof as to the correct procedure for some relief situation. 

Learning the Rules to the point where I am hasn't really taken that much work. Mostly it's just from living by the rules on the course for the last 20 years, and from having discussions like these on golf forums. If you make a point of spending that much time with them, something has to soak in, no matter how thick one's skull is. Conversations like this go farther toward keeping me sharp on the rules than anything else I do. :headbang:


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

I've got a thick skull so you'll just have to use an old putter to make me understand certain things. I just watch Harrington put one in the bushes but never saw if he found it or what he did, damn phone. Plus I caught where a player hit across the water left of the red stakes. the ball hit on the second cut near the green and in the water never saw the ruling. So Rick I'm asking if you were watching the BMW yesterday and today to see these two situations. and how they were ruled or should be ruled


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

broken tee said:


> I've got a thick skull so you'll just have to use an old putter to make me understand certain things. I just watch Harrington put one in the bushes but never saw if he found it or what he did, damn phone. Plus I caught where a player hit across the water left of the red stakes. the ball hit on the second cut near the green and in the water never saw the ruling. So Rick I'm asking if you were watching the BMW yesterday and today to see these two situations. and how they were ruled or should be ruled


Didn't see either one. The first one depends on whether he found the ball, and on whether he could play a stroke at it when he did. The first case would be a lost ball and stroke and distance penalty applies (hit again from the previous spot). The second case, if the ball is found, but unplayable in the bush, he has 3 options outlined in Rule 28.

The second one, it depends on whether the ball had crossed outside of the hazard margin on the green side of the water, then bounced back. If so then he can drop on the green side within 2 clublengths of the spot where it crossed back in, provided that there is a place to drop that is outside of the hazard and not closer to the hole than that spot. Not having seen the incident, I dont know if that was the case, nor do I know what the outcome was.


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

OH well, I'm hoping the golf channel will show them again.


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## Surtees (Sep 11, 2007)

for the second one you are saying that if the ball bounce in the field of play on the green side, then went back out of bounds he can take a drop from there?


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## Up North (Jul 3, 2008)

I think the one rule I'd change is the one that penalizes the player when the wind blows hard enough to move the ball and he/she is in the address position. This happened Paddy Harrington in the Masters I believe. Stupid rule. It was clear that he hadn't touched the ball with his putter but yet he loses a stroke to Mother Nature...doesn't seem to make sense.

Buck


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

Up North said:


> I think the one rule I'd change is the one that penalizes the player when the wind blows hard enough to move the ball and he/she is in the address position. This happened Paddy Harrington in the Masters I believe. Stupid rule. It was clear that he hadn't touched the ball with his putter but yet he loses a stroke to Mother Nature...doesn't seem to make sense.
> 
> Buck


HUUUUUUMMMMMMM! Good point, I wonder what Rick would Say,HUUUUUUMMMMM!


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## Surtees (Sep 11, 2007)

I agree that rule is dodge!!!!


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

Surtees said:


> I agree that rule is dodge!!!!


Hey! never slander a man's truck young man:cheeky4:

Explain what dodge means in Australian. Us yanks use Webster's dictionary and not Oxford


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## Surtees (Sep 11, 2007)

sorry i meant dodgee!!!! it means something thats not quiet right.
and get a F-truck Bob


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

Surtees said:


> sorry i meant dodgee!!!! it means something thats not quiet right.
> and get a F-truck Bob


I'm surprised at your language

this is what Buck is referencing
18-2
b. Ball Moving After Address

If a player's ball in playmoves after he has addressed it (other than as a result of a stroke), the player is deemed to have moved the ball and
incurs a penalty of one stroke.
The ball must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.


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## Up North (Jul 3, 2008)

broken tee said:


> I'm surprised at your language
> 
> this is what Buck is referencing
> 18-2
> ...


I hope he meant get a "Ford F150 or F250"...not sure, just trying my best to make it look good...LOL.

Anyway, yeah that's the rule. I just don't see a reason behind that rule. If a player addresses the ball, such as lining up your putter behind the ball and getting ready to putt the ball. Then the wind picks up and blows your ball 6 inches or whatever, and you haven't actually made the stroke yet, why should you be penalized? You don't get penalized if you're standing next to the ball with your putter to your side and the wind blows it around, you simply replace the ball where it was. Weird.

Buck


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## Surtees (Sep 11, 2007)

yes i did mean f 150, 250 which ever model you like sorry should of made it more clear.. I think I made as much sense as that rule does!


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

broken tee said:


> HUUUUUUMMMMMMM! Good point, I wonder what Rick would Say,HUUUUUUMMMMM!





Up North said:


> I hope he meant get a "Ford F150 or F250"...not sure, just trying my best to make it look good...LOL.
> 
> Anyway, yeah that's the rule. I just don't see a reason behind that rule. If a player addresses the ball, such as lining up your putter behind the ball and getting ready to putt the ball. Then the wind picks up and blows your ball 6 inches or whatever, and you haven't actually made the stroke yet, why should you be penalized? You don't get penalized if you're standing next to the ball with your putter to your side and the wind blows it around, you simply replace the ball where it was. Weird.
> 
> Buck


The answer is... don't ground your putter if your ball is lying on a slope when it's windy. That way you won't get penalized if it moves, unless you can be otherwise seen as the cause. That's how I do it, and if I can, a pro certainly should be able to. I don't ground my club when the ball lies in deep rough for the same reason. 

The reason for the rule is that once you ground your club, it brings in a smidgen of doubt as to what actually caused the movement.  Since the rule applies everywhere on the course, if you address the ball when it's in the rough and it moves, you can't call it the wind... but if you haven't grounded your club and clearly haven't done anything that might have caused the movement, then there is still no penalty. It's the same on the green. Blame it on gravity... blame it on the wind... both are treated the same under the rules. The rule is applied equally everywhere. Address your ball, the ball moves, assess the penalty, replace the ball, try it again. 

By the way, the player has addressed the ball if he has taken his stance, AND grounded the club.


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## Surtees (Sep 11, 2007)

cool so as long as you dont ground the club your right if the ball moves


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

Surtees said:


> yes i did mean f 150, 250 which ever model you like sorry should of made it more clear.. I think I made as much sense as that rule does!


 I knew what you meant 

It does read as a dumb rule, but having Rick explain them you see the Logic.
My complaint is the Language/wording of the rules.


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## Up North (Jul 3, 2008)

I see it as two different things. Off the green, such as the rough, grounding your club could in fact easily be seen as the reason the ball may move even without touching the ball. We all know that pushing down on the grass with the clubhead can cause the gravity effect and send the ball in motion. But on the green where the grass is obviously very short and placing the clubhead behind the ball (grounding) has no effect on it, to me seems like a different scenario. 

So what's the ruling on this, you tee up your ball and in the act of grounding your driver or during the waggle, you accidently knock the ball off the tee with the driver. Does that get a penalty stroke or do you simply re-tee the ball? I've never seen this happen on any of the tours, but see it all the time with buddies and even myself once or twice.

Buck


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

Up North said:


> So what's the ruling on this, you tee up your ball and in the act of grounding your driver or during the waggle, you accidently knock the ball off the tee with the driver. Does that get a penalty stroke or do you simply re-tee the ball? I've never seen this happen on any of the tours, but see it all the time with buddies and even myself once or twice.
> 
> Buck


No penalty because the ball is not in play until you have made a _stroke_ at it from the _teeing ground_. See "ball in play" in the definitions section of the Rules of Golf.


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

This is one example of useless wording. to me it says the same thing. Did Nancy Pelosi write this? because when she speaks I haven't a clue what she's talking about(babble)


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

My general take on these rules change discussions....

Why is it that some people are incapable of seeing through their own preconceptions and prejudices of what they THINK the rules should be, instead of seeing that what now makes up the Rules of Golf has been tested modified over 250 years to best accommodate the vagaries of the game? People seem unable or unwilling to see the complexity of the interrelationships that necessitate the structure which has evolved. They want each and every impossible situation to be accounted for, even though such changes would immediately contradict other rules, which would then have to be changed (in their minds anyway) to accommodate the newly created problem. Those subsequent changes would then necessitate other modifications until the game would become unrecognizable as golf. 

Anyone who has a problem with the rules as they are should take a USGA rules seminar. Then at least they could ask their endlessly repeated questions of someone who really knows the answers. They might even find a reasonable and logical answer for themselves just by starting to understand where the rules come from and what they are trying to accomplish. I have been to seminars in the past, but I still don't profess to know all the answers (although the USGA workshop instructors do). What I do know is that there is a good reason for every rule being as it is, and I also know that they have evolved and changed due to necessity, not to whim. 

The rules have made a logical progression from the two *original principals that the game was founded on*...

*1)... You play the course as you find it.*

*2)... You put your ball into play to start the hole, play only your own ball, and do not touch it until you lift it from the hole.*


This is the essence of *GOLF*... anything else is just garnish. All of the rules are aimed at adhering to these 2 basic tenets as closely as is reasonably possible. If you look at it from that point of view, you can at least begin to see why the rules are what they are. While some may seem arbitrary, they are attempting to adhere to those principles while still accommodating the variety of situations which arise (and which have cropped up over the centuries). 

Always look at each scenario from the angle of "What can I do to follow those two statements as closely as possible?" You will find that the appropriate rule as written usually puts you in that place. Rules have been tried and rejected because when you deviate too far from those 2 ideals, applying such rules becomes even more complicated and contradictory. 

All I ever see in these threads are players who seem to want to gripe about one incident or scenario without taking into account all of the other related situations that would or could be adversely affected by such a change. The most vocal complainers seem to be those who have the weakest grounding in Rules theory.


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

Rick: In my case and the example that I used, it is not questioning the wisdom behind the rule for me its the way they're written. I honor the arguement you make its reasonable and prudent. This is why we need your expertise.


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

broken tee said:


> Rick: In my case and the example that I used, it is not questioning the wisdom behind the rule for me its the way they're written. I honor the arguement you make its reasonable and prudent. This is why we need your expertise.


But that is precisely why they are written as they are. The language must be precise in order to eliminate misinterpretation. Like most documents written in legal form, that may lead to a difficulty in understanding for the layman, but when the words are sorted out, the meaning really can't be misinterpreted. The more you learn about them, the more reasonable and logical is the terminology. This is also why it is so crucial to read and study the Definitions section. If you don't understand the specific meanings of the words used, then you can never reach a point of understanding the rules themselves. You can't take a simple Webster's Dictionary meaning for many of the words and phrases in the Rules of Golf. You must understand them as defined in the rule book itself.


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

Rick: You are right,But pulling rules apart in this discussion is teaching other readers as well as the poster what he or she must know and understand. if it wasn't for you jumping in and saying "wrong" and getting those of us that want to learn the rules I wouldn't be digging in the rule book so much as I do to try and stump you. Hell Luke would still be looking for his ball if you hadn't explained the five minute rule to him on the other thread.


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## Surtees (Sep 11, 2007)

what can i stop looking did you find it?????

This is an interesting couple of post. The wording of the rules cannot be taken as if you are reading normal English they are written to be taken in one way only. That is way in match play of any type if you have an issue you are unsure of you are best to ask an official, then risk a penalty if you are wrong. 

In my opinion if you are just having a casual round with friends then some of the rules can be relaxed a little not ignored as long as you are playing the spirit and etiquette of the game.


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## stevel1017 (Apr 30, 2007)

There is only one rule I wish was (were?) changed. That is the one when you hit your ball in the fairway, but into a divot, and are stuck with the lie. Ifr the moron had replaced his divot, as he should have then you would not be punished. I think you should not be punished for hitting a good shot, but that is golf sometimes


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## Surtees (Sep 11, 2007)

that is a very unlucky event and it is very annoying i agree with you on that one. i think you should be allowed to just place your ball to the side of where you hit of course no closer to the hole.


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

stevel1017 said:


> There is only one rule I wish was (were?) changed. That is the one when you hit your ball in the fairway, but into a divot, and are stuck with the lie. Ifr the moron had replaced his divot, as he should have then you would not be punished. I think you should not be punished for hitting a good shot, but that is golf sometimes


One real problem with this is definition. When is a divot no longer a divot? How far does it have to regrow before relief is no longer allowed? And when it reaches a certain point how can you tell a divot from other incidental damage to the turf? 

When you attempt to make a rule change, you HAVE to balance the benefits against the consequences. How often does this really happen? I literally can't remember the last time I had to play from an old divot. And I play a LOT of golf. 

Is it really worth getting worked up over? IMO, it isn't. This is one of the first things that is brought up in these discussions, yet it's actually a very rare occurrence on the golf course.


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## 373 (Jun 9, 2006)

There are rules that apply to the game, whether a friendly casual round or a big PGA tournament and I have no problem with the Rules of Golf as written. But, there are some rules made up just for tournaments that I think are worth considering.

For example, when the PGA, R&A or USGA has an official scorer with each group on the course, (generally major tournaments), why do the players also keep a scorecard for each other? Every year you hear about someone getting penalized or disqualified because they fail to catch an error on the card that was kept by their playing partner. Other players are apparently terrified to play with Boo Weekly.

If there is an official scorer, it should be the card kept by the official scorer to be checked against.

Also, remember a couple years ago, Michelle Wie was playing really well in some tournament, but she got distracted and left the scorekeeper's tent without signing her scorecard? She returned a few minutes later to sign it, but was told she was disqualified because she had gone beyond the ropes of a certain area.

If she had left the course, that would have been one thing, but being ten yards away doesn't make sense to me. I know we had a somewhat heated debate about this at the time, but I still feel the common sense thing to do would have been to call her back, or reconsider how players are made to insure a signature goes on their card.

But that's just me...


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

DennisM said:


> There are rules that apply to the game, whether a friendly casual round or a big PGA tournament and I have no problem with the Rules of Golf as written. But, there are some rules made up just for tournaments that I think are worth considering.
> 
> For example, when the PGA, R&A or USGA has an official scorer with each group on the course, (generally major tournaments), why do the players also keep a scorecard for each other? Every year you hear about someone getting penalized or disqualified because they fail to catch an error on the card that was kept by their playing partner. Other players are apparently terrified to play with Boo Weekly.
> 
> ...


Dennis: I'm like you I don't have a problem with the rules other than language. Like I mentioned to Rick, if we tear these rules apart and he comes back with an explanation we benefit from his tutelage.:headbang:


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

DennisM said:


> There are rules that apply to the game, whether a friendly casual round or a big PGA tournament and I have no problem with the Rules of Golf as written. But, there are some rules made up just for tournaments that I think are worth considering.
> 
> For example, when the PGA, R&A or USGA has an official scorer with each group on the course, (generally major tournaments), why do the players also keep a scorecard for each other? Every year you hear about someone getting penalized or disqualified because they fail to catch an error on the card that was kept by their playing partner. Other players are apparently terrified to play with Boo Weekly.
> 
> ...


I worked a PGA Tour tournament for 4 years, but I never saw an official scorer with a group. The only such individual that the rules allow is a _marker_ (Definition: A "marker" is one who is appointed by the Committee to record a competitor's score in stroke play. He may be a fellow-competitor. He is not a referee.), and as far as I ever saw, the players acted as each other's marker, just as we do in my Men's Club. There was a volunteer who carried the scoring placard, and more lately someone who uploaded data to shotlink, but as far as I know, neither of those was a marker under the rules. Maybe I missed something, but I worked the same hole as a marshal for 4 years.

As to the signing by Wie... it seems a bit stiff to me too, but it is clearly written on the LPGA hard card that lists the regulations and conditions that apply to every LPGA tournament. It's the player's responsibility to know and live by them.


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## Surtees (Sep 11, 2007)

I mostly agree with that last statement Rick. The pros that play this game for a living should have a very good understanding of the rules as this is there job playing golf professionally. Where I disagree on the Wie case really she walk out of the room and then remember that she hadn't signed her card so she went back in. I believe that she should of got a wrap over the knuckles and then signed her card and continue on her way. Yes cases like this highlight the rules and I'm sure it was a hard lesson for her to learn but I dont think she was the only one that learnt from it either. I just dont think that the penalty fitted the crime.


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## Fourputt (Nov 18, 2006)

Surtees said:


> I mostly agree with that last statement Rick. The pros that play this game for a living should have a very good understanding of the rules as this is there job playing golf professionally. Where I disagree on the Wie case really she walk out of the room and then remember that she hadn't signed her card so she went back in. I believe that she should of got a wrap over the knuckles and then signed her card and continue on her way. Yes cases like this highlight the rules and I'm sure it was a hard lesson for her to learn but I dont think she was the only one that learnt from it either. I just dont think that the penalty fitted the crime.


She did not technically breach a rule of golf. She fell afoul of a condition of the competition which every LPGA player is subject to. That is what the hard card is all about. Every Tour has one, and they spell out the special conditions which will be in effect in every tournament. My own Men's Club has a hard card, and we are bound by it just as the pros are. 

When I play in a tournament, I know that I can't relax and unwind until my card is signed and returned to the committee. I also know that if I breach any of the conditions which apply to that process, I'll be disqualified. I sit down with my marker, and I match my official card which he kept with the card I kept myself. We discuss any discrepancies, then we both sign the official card and return it to the scorer's table. Your round is not over until that point, and you need to maintain the same focus that you had on the course. Michelle Wie failed to maintain that focus and she paid for it. It's a bummer, but hopefully she learned a lesson. That is why many Tour players don't acknowledge the fans or the media until they have completed that final task of the round. They don't want any distractions that might cause them to make a stupid mistake.

Like Yogi Berra said... "It ain't over 'til it's over." 


Only when my card is in the hands of the scorer do I order a beer, whether in celebration or to ease my depression. In any case I know that I've done everything I'm supposed to do, and done it the way I'm supposed to do it. :thumbsup:


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

Rick: That was very well stated...This is why I like to discuss things with you and a jab here and there


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## Surtees (Sep 11, 2007)

Yes Rick you need to follow the rules all the way through and she didn't. We had a discussion on this at the time and yes it was her fault so she had to live with the out come. I'm sure that she wont forget to do that again though!


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

Why are you looking on this one?


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## broken tee (Jan 13, 2008)

I'm putting the threads in some sense of order:thumbsup:


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