# Clubhead Speeds



## JPsuff

.


While reading an article online I happened upon these interesting stats regarding Pro clubhead speeds. The article offered examples of average driver clubhead speeds for some popular Pros and I was surprised at the numbers.

Vijay Singh: 113 m.p.h.
Robert Allenby: 112 m.p.h.
Phil Mickelson: 120 m.p.h.
Ernie Els: 118 m.p.h.


No issue here. I just thought it was interesting.


-JP


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## 300Yards

Thanks, JP, that is shocking! Vijay has an average of only 118?? WOW!! I would've thought that number was much higher. Did it say what Tigers' average was?


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## jump15vc

yeah theyre lower than you'd think i saw an article last year that said camillo villeagas averaged 115 and bubba watson was around 118


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## 300Yards

Then how is it possible that these guys are reaching 320 yards?? It takes about 115 to reach 300, and I figure about 120 will reach 320...and I see Vijay go that far all the time..strange...?


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## golf fanatic 57

how does one go about measuring their clubhead speed?


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## BrianMcG

300Yards said:


> Then how is it possible that these guys are reaching 320 yards?? It takes about 115 to reach 300, and I figure about 120 will reach 320...and I see Vijay go that far all the time..strange...?


Average is just that, average. Take a measurement of their FASTEST clubhead speed and you will see much larger numbers. If you told me your average score was 80 and then told me you shot 72 today, I wouldn't say "How did you do that, you said your average score was 80". 

I have hit many 320yd drives while my swing is not that fast. Downhill, downwind, very tight cut fairways that put most public course greens to shame. Go play at a course that is set up for a PGA event, they get those fairways mowed so low anyone can get 40yds of roll after a drive.

Clubhead speed isn't the only factor that will determine how far your ball will go.




golf fanatic 57 said:


> how does one go about measuring their clubhead speed?


Radar.
Or something like this:
https://www.beltronics.com/cp/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?&pg=prod&ref=swing_mate


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## cbwheeler

They have different launch angles that produce different spin rates, different amounts of carry, etc. If you notice, Tiger's drives hardly ever roll more than 10 yards, while Vijays and Ernie's roll 30 at least. I know Vijay uses a driver with less loft than some putters. I read once it was 6 degress. How, I don't know... It's all about ball spin dynamics.


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## Lead Tape

golf fanatic 57 said:


> how does one go about measuring their clubhead speed?



There are a number of different units out there to measure clubhead speed from the very expensive and sophisticated to portable models that anyone can afford. They aren't all calibrated the same and WILL GIVE DIFFERENT readouts. The speeds here look fairly low and I've seen entirely different speeds elsewhere for the pros that are normally in the 120's, and for guys like Tiger, Daly, and a few others they are in the low 130's.

Here are two portable units that I think EVERY serious golfer should own.

Sport Sensors Swing Speed Radar Golf Swing, Baseball bat / Softball bats w/ FREE UPS

Golf Instruction: Golf Aids: Golf Swing Trainer: Speed Meter

I've been using the Bel-Tronics unit for well over a decade to fit shafts for all levels of players and work with long drive guys on the LDA. There are a number of factors that determine total distance such as launch angle, spin, and trajectory...but the bottom line and most important is CLUB HEAD SPEED and BALL SPEED. Ball speed is a direct product of CLUB HEAD SPEED. It's normally calculated that each MPH is equal to 2.31 yards. Therefore if you're swinging at 100 mph you're looking at 231 yeards of carry. (assuming the right loft on the club for spin, launch, etc. to match your swing)

If you were to work on increasing your club head speed to 110 mph through better fit equipment, swing changes, or learning how to speed up your arms and body through strength training and speed drills, you'd pick up 23 yards.

The Bel-Tronic unit is quite accurate. The HIGHEST I've ever personally seen measured on the unit is 157 mph by a guy I was working with regularly that made it into the finals of the RE/MAX World Championships. He was at his peak at the time. Normally he was anywhere between 138-148 miles an hour with a 48" club and either a 4 or 5 degree loft driver. One time we were playing on a course together and he hit the green ON A FLY of a 400 yard hole and it was INTO a 10-12 mph wind! He hit it 415 in the quarterfinals of the RE/MAX.


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## 300Yards

BrianMcG said:


> Average is just that, average. Take a measurement of their FASTEST clubhead speed and you will see much larger numbers. If you told me your average score was 80 and then told me you shot 72 today, I wouldn't say "How did you do that, you said your average score was 80".
> 
> I have hit many 320yd drives while my swing is not that fast. Downhill, downwind, very tight cut fairways that put most public course greens to shame. Go play at a course that is set up for a PGA event, they get those fairways mowed so low anyone can get 40yds of roll after a drive.
> 
> Clubhead speed isn't the only factor that will determine how far your ball will go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Radar.
> Or something like this:
> https://www.beltronics.com/cp/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?&pg=prod&ref=swing_mate



I know all that..but they play on courses that have holes 600 yards or more..why are they holding back? Maybe thats just the "go for it" attitude of mine..but if I had that far to carry, I would put myself out there as far as humanly possible. If Vijays balls roll 30 yards, than I guess that explains it..My balls roll about 20 yards, but I use a 9* driver so, that normal for me. If he's using a lower lofted driver, than that would explain the distance.


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## Lead Tape

300Yards said:


> I know all that..but they play on courses that have holes 600 yards or more..why are they holding back? Maybe thats just the "go for it" attitude of mine..but if I had that far to carry, I would put myself out there as far as humanly possible. If Vijays balls roll 30 yards, than I guess that explains it..My balls roll about 20 yards, but I use a 9* driver so, that normal for me. If he's using a lower lofted driver, than that would explain the distance.


Vijay was using a 10.5 loft driver last year and right now is using a 9.5 degree driver. Go to: TheGolfChannel.com - Golf's Home Page Go to the Equipment section at the top of the page and click onto "What's in the Bag". Go to Vijay Singh and look at his clubs for his latest win.

Distance IS a combination of carry and roll. You have to find what is optimum for YOU. To get maximum carry for your distance you'll give up roll. If you get a lower lofted club it'll produce more roll and less carry. Then you have to take the softness and hardness of the fairways into consideration.
Soft fairways = more carry desired. Rock hard fairways = less carry more roll desired.
To low a loft on soft fairways will shorten your total distance.


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## 300Yards

I gotta disagree with one point in your post:



> To get maximum carry for your distance you'll give up roll. If you get a lower lofted club it'll produce more roll and less carry


My RPMs are so low, that I can pretty much hit a 10.5, and a 9.5 driver the same carry, and roll distance. I have several different lofted drivrs I use, just not at once. Depending on how high I want my shots to go, I may pick a lower or higher lofted club, but the distance is still about the same for me. I've never hit anything lower than 8*, so I can't say much about that.


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## Lead Tape

300Yards said:


> I gotta disagree with one point in your post:
> 
> 
> 
> My RPMs are so low, that I can pretty much hit a 10.5, and a 9.5 driver the same carry, and roll distance. I have several different lofted drivrs I use, just not at once. Depending on how high I want my shots to go, I may pick a lower or higher lofted club, but the distance is still about the same for me. I've never hit anything lower than 8*, so I can't say much about that.



Are they the same head from the same manufacturer? Center of gravity in a head can alter the results. One manufactures 9.5 degree can provide totally different results than another one. Even if they ARE from the same manufacturer, is the 10.5 and the 9.5 accurate in their measurement and what the "stamp" on the bottom says? For all you know, they could BOTH be off by a half degree and be 10's. They can definitely be off by a degree or so. What about the gram weight of the head or shaft...are THEY identical or you dealing in different gram weights? What result might you get from a slightly lighter or heavier weight than another?

Is it the EXACT same shaft with identical cpm's on a frequency machine? THAT can alter the flight pattern and launch angle.

Is the GRIP identical in size when measured with calipers? Even a grip size that's off a hair can and will cause you to release it just a little differently.

There is soooooo much sh!t that goes into this it's mind boggling!
At this point...you don't even know what you don't know and what there is to know. All you do is HIT, which is good.


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## white_tiger_137

It's amazing what you can do with 120 mph of clubhead speed if you catch it exactly on the sweet spot every time.


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## jump15vc

Lead Tape said:


> They can definitely be off by a degree or so.


drivers have a loft tolerance of .5* so theoretically they could both be 10's but its pretty unlikely.

also why are you coming at 300 like that anyway. i assume its probably a similar shaft with the same grips and clubheads today are pretty standard. low spin numbers would explain a more boring trajectory that isn't affected much by the loft of the club.


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## 373

A few months ago, I bought one of those Swingstick gadgets. It's got a simple swing speed meter in it. Since I started using it, my swing speed has supposedly gone up 10 mph, to about 100 mph, but I honestly don't see a difference in how far I hit it off the tee.

I recently bought a set of irons with regular shafts and my initial experiments for the week I've had them indicate I can hit them as far as my stiff shafts, but with less effort. I also seem to hit them higher and the other day, landed some 6-7-8-9-PW shots softer than I felt like I was before. This is going to be interesting.

Too much goes into how we hit a ball. The swing speed is just one small part of it.


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## JPsuff

.



> *DennisM wrote:*Too much goes into how we hit a ball. The swing speed is just one small part of it.


Precisely!

You know, 113 m.p.h. is not a bad clubhead speed and it is not an uncommonly low clubhead speed either.

Consider this: The rule of thumb with clubhead speed versus ball speed is that ball speed is generally one and one-half times the clubhead speed. So a clubhead speed of 113 m.p.h. should produce a ball speed of approx. 170 m.p.h.. Now, if you can consistently produce that ball speed, you should be able to consistently average about 270 - 280 yds. of carry. Carry distance such as that will keep you in the game on virtually any golf course.

Add to that a properly fitted shaft with enough impact "kick" to add, say, 6 m.p.h. more to your clubhead speed and couple that with a loft and shaft flex that suits your swing style and you're in the 300 yd. neighborhood.

It's all a numbers game.

Everyone in this country is so obsessed with distance and clubhead speed that we've all lost sight of simple physics. The pro's are not superhuman, nor do they possess some mysterious ability to swing a golf club in a manner which rivals the catapult launch speeds of a Nimitz-class aircraft carrier. 
They are simply human beings with whatever physical abilities typical humans possess. 
What separates "us" from "them" is an understanding of the golf swing as it relates to timing, control, and technique which along with properly fitted equipment produce optimum results relative to their physical characteristics. They understand their physical limitations and they also understand the needs of a given situation on a golf course. They don't swing for the fences at every opportunity as most of us do (whether we care to admit it or not) nor do they take unnecessary risks.

There will always be the exceptions to the rule such as Tiger and a few others who seem to be able to draw on some unlimited well of swing power, but most are just basic standard-issue humans with basic standard-issue bodies. It's the old case of "It ain't whatcha got, it's how you use it".

And don't forget something else: When we see a group of pro's in contention on Sunday or even during an entire tournament, we are seeing the guys who are performing exceptionally well THAT WEEK or THAT DAY. What we don't see are the guys who are knocking the ball all over the lot - just like we do - and haven't a hope of finishing anywhere near the lead. 
The trouble is that we see these contenders doing all sorts of wonderful things and we think that's normal or an everyday occurrence and then we try to emulate them. Of course, when we fail to even remotely produce the results that we're seeing on TV, we go nuts and start buying new clubs, new shafts, new balls and God knows what else instead of simply pausing for a moment to consider that what we've been shown is a group of exceptional performers who happen to have managed to pull it all together for a moment in time.

The pro's do this for a living. They hit more golf balls in a day than most of us will in a week or more. They have access to any means of practice, instruction and equipment guru's and they have the resources to have themselves outfitted with the finest equipment money (or the sponsor) can buy.

We, on the other hand, have Golfsmith and Mel's Mini-putt and Driving range.

Relax people. 300 yard drives should not be a "goal" but rather a bonus. 250 to 270 are far more realistic “high end” numbers and 210 to 240 are probably more typical for most. But the most significant thing about those numbers is that they’re much easier to keep under control. And with our limited access to this game, control should be what's most important.


-JP


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## JPsuff

Oops, hit the wrong key!


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## 300Yards

Lead Tape said:


> Are they the same head from the same manufacturer? Center of gravity in a head can alter the results. One manufactures 9.5 degree can provide totally different results than another one. Even if they ARE from the same manufacturer, is the 10.5 and the 9.5 accurate in their measurement and what the "stamp" on the bottom says? For all you know, they could BOTH be off by a half degree and be 10's. They can definitely be off by a degree or so. What about the gram weight of the head or shaft...are THEY identical or you dealing in different gram weights? What result might you get from a slightly lighter or heavier weight than another?
> 
> Is it the EXACT same shaft with identical cpm's on a frequency machine? THAT can alter the flight pattern and launch angle.
> 
> Is the GRIP identical in size when measured with calipers? Even a grip size that's off a hair can and will cause you to release it just a little differently.
> 
> There is soooooo much sh!t that goes into this it's mind boggling!
> At this point...you don't even know what you don't know and what there is to know. All you do is HIT, which is good.



Since I didn't build the thing, I can't really say..but it was built by long driving professionals so I'll have to say yes. The head is the same, and I have checked the loft..they are pretty much on the money. The grips are the same, and the shafts are the same as far as I can tell..


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## 300Yards

JPsuff said:


> .
> 
> *Everyone in this country is so obsessed with distance and clubhead speed that we've all lost sight of simple physics. The pro's are not superhuman, nor do they possess some mysterious ability to swing a golf club in a manner which rivals the catapult launch speeds of a Nimitz-class aircraft carrier.
> They are simply human beings with whatever physical abilities typical humans possess.
> What separates "us" from "them" is an understanding of the golf swing as it relates to timing, control, and technique which along with properly fitted equipment produce optimum results relative to their physical characteristics. They understand their physical limitations and they also understand the needs of a given situation on a golf course. They don't swing for the fences at every opportunity as most of us do (whether we care to admit it or not) nor do they take unnecessary risks.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -JP


I completely agree..and as I stated, I hardlt, if ever swing that hard on the course. Around 120, is my usual SS. + or - 5mph. The reason I swing as hard as I do, is becasue I have a good understanding of the golfswing, and in fact, I would reckon that my approach to the swing is different than most, but obviously, it works. Me being about 5' 7", about 160 pounds..I should not be able to hit that hard, but I do..why? Because I swing as hard as I can, and pray for contact..no! I work hard, I hit hundreds of balls a day..I spend hours at the driving range per week, and I train the important muscles so that I can perform this well. I know when to hold back, and swing it easy, or when to slice/hook the ball, and how far to spin it. I can control this, so i can afford to hit the ball harder. I too believe that distance is irrelevent to a good golfer, but I am blessed with the long ball, so I take advantage of that. There are times when extra power, and a little extra oomph in your swing can help. It all just knowing when to use it.


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## BrianMcG

300Yards said:


> I know all that..but they play on courses that have holes 600 yards or more..why are they holding back? Maybe thats just the "go for it" attitude of mine..but if I had that far to carry, I would put myself out there as far as humanly possible. If Vijays balls roll 30 yards, than I guess that explains it..My balls roll about 20 yards, but I use a 9* driver so, that normal for me. If he's using a lower lofted driver, than that would explain the distance.



You don't seem to understand the concept of average. Why would you think they would hold back on a 600 yd hole if there is no trouble? Hint, they don't. It is then you would see swing speed easily 130-150. 

The next hole may have some fairway bunkers and O.B. down one side, they still may hit a driver, but they are not going to try to crank it out there 350yds. That would just be dumb. There is a reason these guys shoot such low scores and its not because they always try to hit it 350yds every hole.


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## BrianMcG

JPStuff,

Well said.


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## Lead Tape

jump15vc said:


> drivers have a loft tolerance of .5* so theoretically they could both be 10's but its pretty unlikely.
> 
> also why are you coming at 300 like that anyway. i assume its probably a similar shaft with the same grips and clubheads today are pretty standard. low spin numbers would explain a more boring trajectory that isn't affected much by the loft of the club.


Have you EVER hit two identical clubs side by side made by the same manufacturer in loft, shaft, grip, everything and find trajectory, solidity, and distance differences that were unexplainable?

When a PGA pro cracks the face on his driver, is it an automatic that the company sends him ONE driver and it's an exact duplicate of the broken one and plays identically because the specs are all the same?
NOT HARDLY! Tom Watson cracked his face last year and had a hell of a time finding something that he was satisfied with and they were ALL identical in specs. I think I remember reading where he went through about 26 drivers to get an identical match in the performance of his broken one.

I'm not coming at 300 in any way, just trying to help him get a better understanding of certain intricate factors. What comes across in the written word of forums isn't exactly like it would be interpreted if being said in person. Fact is, 300 is probably my favorite poster on this entire forum and I think he did a super job of reviewing all the drivers.
I too hit every one of the drivers he tested (and even a few more) at the demo day of the PGA Show in Orlando on a 360 degree outdoor driving range with EVERY major and minor club company set up.

I was in 100% agreement with him on his assessment and results for the drivers that he reviewed. It was kind of uncanny because there are normally 1 or 2 drivers that two different players would disagree about. I found NONE. I think I would have ripped a couple of drivers that he didn't give glowing reviews to even worse...and I may have given a slight bit more praise to a few that he gave the "wow" factor, but other than that, we see eye to eye on a lot of stuff.


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## Lead Tape

There are a number of misconceptions and misunderstandings about a variety of factors regarding club or shaft information, some are very important in the overall scheme of things and some are far less important. 

Here's a "for instance". Let's take the KICK POINT of a shaft, which you hear mentioned often and seems to be the primary buzzword indicator of how good that shaft will play for a lot of guys and what goes into their buying decisions.

You have a LOW kickpoint...a MID kickpoint...and a HIGH kickpoint. How about giving your guess on WHERE those kickpoints are actually located on the shaft? And in your opinion, how would you rank it in importance to other factors of a shaft?


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## JPsuff

.


Kick point has little to do with overall performance or ball flight. I've pointed this out before on this and other forums and it has been met with more than a fair amount of skepticism.

First of all, the so-called "kick points" on a typical golf shaft generally exist within the space of about one inch on the shaft. Secondly, kick point has more to do with comfort than performance. A shaft with a high kick point will feel a bit stiffer than one with a low to mid kick point. It has been demonstrated in a variety of studies that the effect of a shaft's kick point with regard to launch angle is minimal at best. Most studies indicate that the range of difference amounts to about one-degree between low and high kick points and is considered to be a negligable factor.


-JP


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## 373

JPsuff said:


> .It has been demonstrated in a variety of studies that the effect of a shaft's kick point with regard to launch angle is minimal at best. Most studies indicate that the range of difference amounts to about one-degree between low and high kick points and is considered to be a negligable factor.-JP


I only know what I've heard, so take it with a grain of salt, but I wonder if it's a bit more dramatic than that.

Yes, the so called kick point range is spread over about 1"-2" on the shaft, no argument there. You can actually see it and measure it on charts made for the purpose. The shaft gets locked into a clamp and the tip gets deflected to bow the shaft. On the wall behind it is a chart made to look like graph paper and seeing at what point the bend starts and where the tip appears to retain some stiffness results in a measureable way of examining shaft flex and the deflection point, or kick point. Ralph Maltby's book on club building and repair has some pictures... noticed them some time back...

What I've heard though is that the effect of the kick point is magnified by the flex of the shaft, or maybe I should say magnified by less stiffness to the design of the shaft. In other words, various kick points on a stiff shaft might not exhibit trajectories with much difference, just like you said. On the other hand, on a regular flex shaft or a senior flex shaft, the range of trajectories might be wider and more to the benefit of the person for whom a regular or senior shaft is better fitted. YMMV... 

As usual though, it's one of those peculiar mixtures of science and art that not even all the students at Hoggwarts could figure out!


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## BrianMcG

This conversation is starting to make my head hurt. If you guys start throwing out trigonometry or physics equations I'm outa here. The weather is just to nice.

FORE!!!









Or is that two?


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## 300Yards

BrianMcG said:


> You don't seem to understand the concept of average. Why would you think they would hold back on a 600 yd hole if there is no trouble? Hint, they don't. It is then you would see swing speed easily 130-150.
> 
> The next hole may have some fairway bunkers and O.B. down one side, they still may hit a driver, but they are not going to try to crank it out there 350yds. That would just be dumb. There is a reason these guys shoot such low scores and its not because they always try to hit it 350yds every hole.


Did you even read my previous post? Your telling a +1.6 handicapper, that he doesn't understand averages?? Your saying it is dumb to smack a ball 350 down a fairway that is 600 yards long?? Let me tell you something..If you can control that distance, and control your fade and draw well, then there is no reason to hold back, and that is why I reach a lot of Par 5 greens, under 550 yards, in two shots. I understand the concepts of averages, and I know mine well. You are pretty much mirroring that of what has already been said...I'm really tired of responding to the same thing..not to be rude or anything..


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## 300Yards

Lead Tape said:


> Have you EVER hit two identical clubs side by side made by the same manufacturer in loft, shaft, grip, everything and find trajectory, solidity, and distance differences that were unexplainable?
> 
> When a PGA pro cracks the face on his driver, is it an automatic that the company sends him ONE driver and it's an exact duplicate of the broken one and plays identically because the specs are all the same?
> NOT HARDLY! Tom Watson cracked his face last year and had a hell of a time finding something that he was satisfied with and they were ALL identical in specs. I think I remember reading where he went through about 26 drivers to get an identical match in the performance of his broken one.
> 
> I'm not coming at 300 in any way, just trying to help him get a better understanding of certain intricate factors. What comes across in the written word of forums isn't exactly like it would be interpreted if being said in person. Fact is, 300 is probably my favorite poster on this entire forum and I think he did a super job of reviewing all the drivers.
> I too hit every one of the drivers he tested (and even a few more) at the demo day of the PGA Show in Orlando on a 360 degree outdoor driving range with EVERY major and minor club company set up.
> 
> I was in 100% agreement with him on his assessment and results for the drivers that he reviewed. It was kind of uncanny because there are normally 1 or 2 drivers that two different players would disagree about. I found NONE. I think I would have ripped a couple of drivers that he didn't give glowing reviews to even worse...and I may have given a slight bit more praise to a few that he gave the "wow" factor, but other than that, we see eye to eye on a lot of stuff.


Thanks for that..how very friendly of you. I could have ripped more on the ones I gave a low score to, but I feel that with maybe a bit of dialing in, and possibly a shaft change or two, those clubs may be better, plus I didn't hit on the course..so IMO, my opinion is just a reference. But I'm glad we agree, I enjoy reading your posts as well, and I hope we continue seeing eye to eye.



> Kick point has little to do with overall performance or ball flight. I've pointed this out before on this and other forums and it has been met with more than a fair amount of skepticism.
> 
> First of all, the so-called "kick points" on a typical golf shaft generally exist within the space of about one inch on the shaft. Secondly, kick point has more to do with comfort than performance. A shaft with a high kick point will feel a bit stiffer than one with a low to mid kick point. It has been demonstrated in a variety of studies that the effect of a shaft's kick point with regard to launch angle is minimal at best. Most studies indicate that the range of difference amounts to about one-degree between low and high kick points and is considered to be a negligable factor.


Jp, I am 100% agreement with you there..I myself can say that I really can't see or feel a noticeable difference in shaft flex. I pretty much hit them on the same trajectory..My shots go anywhere from 13*, to about 15*, depending on what driver I use, and really loft for me doesn't make that big of a difference, nor does flex. I like the feeling of a Midkick, and thats the one I use, and swear by. I do notice that I am able to better control the height with the Midkck better, but that is just preference for me.


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## Doby45

300Yards said:


> Did you even read my previous post? Your telling a +1.6 handicapper, that he doesn't understand averages?? Your saying it is dumb to smack a ball 350 down a fairway that is 600 yards long?? Let me tell you something..If you can control that distance


Your handicap has nothing to do with it. He never said it was dumb to smack a ball 350yards down the fairway. He made a very good point that if the fairway is wide open and long you will see the pros coming out of their shoes and hitting the high swings speeds that we know they can. BUT, on a hole that might have trouble in the landing area of a full blown driver shot, the pros will use proper course management and lay back on their swing so that they avoid possible trouble with a really long drive. Now in doing this they might swing 150mph when the fairway is wide open and 115mph when they have trouble long. This would average them to 132.5mph on their swing speed. If you add in just one more par four with trouble at the landing zone their average would go down even further. This does not mean that the pro can't hit a high speed swing though. THAT is the point that was being made. And you took it as a personally attack against your ego and your "go for it" attitude. To each their own, but I think everyone is entitled to their opinions on this board and simply because something does not agree with one of the resident professional non-professionals does not make it wrong.


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## BrianMcG

300Yards said:


> Did you even read my previous post?


Yes I read your posts. That is how I came to the conclusion that you did not understand the concept of average. Your average clubhead speed will always be much lower than you maximum. Your average driving distance will always be lower than your maximum also. Thats just the way it is.



300Yards said:


> Your telling a +1.6 handicapper, that he doesn't understand averages??


Yes, in this case, I am.



300Yards said:


> Your saying it is dumb to smack a ball 350 down a fairway that is 600 yards long??


Nope, never said that. How you got that from what I wrote I do not know.



300Yards said:


> Let me tell you something..If you can control that distance, and control your fade and draw well, then there is no reason to hold back, and that is why I reach a lot of Par 5 greens, under 550 yards, in two shots. I understand the concepts of averages, and I know mine well. You are pretty much mirroring that of what has already been said...I'm really tired of responding to the same thing..not to be rude or anything..


Not sure what I mirrored. You and others were asking questions and quite surprised at the low AVERAGES of some tour pros swing speeds. I tried to explain what averages were and how they can be misleading in that Pros being more concerned about course strategy will not be going full bore on a short hole with lots of trouble. I am pretty sure I was the only one that even mentioned this. If there was someone else that did, then I missed it.


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## JPsuff

BrianMcG said:


> Your average clubhead speed will always be much lower than you maximum.




Why will it always be *much* lower?


An average is simply the intermediate sum of two extremes. But those "extremes" do not necessarily have to be all that different from their average. For instance, the average between 100, 101 and 102 is 101 with 100 and 102 constituting the extremes.

So when I look up the average PGA Tour swing speed and find that it's about 115 mph, the logical assumption would be that the high and low numbers - the extremes - would likely be maybe 5 mph higher or lower.

Players like Tiger are usually not figured into "average" computations because their "well-above-average" stats tend to skew the stats for the overall field of players. Likewise, a Tour player with an extremely low swing speed would not be included in the averages as well.
It's like when you calculate a handicap. It's wise to throw out your best and worst scores and then average the rest together to give you a truer representation of your average score.

To say that tour players can reach down and pull out swing speeds in the 130 to 150 mph range is a little far fetched, in my opinion.

Tour players are the epitome of conservativeness. They would not likely allow themselves to have such a wide gap in their abilities left to chance. If they could control a higher swing speed, they would and so their average would be higher. But 125 mph and higher speeds are not the norm but rather the exception. And it is my assertion that with a stated average of 115 mph Tour-wide, the variations in swing speeds between individual players is probably not much more than 5-8 mph.


-JP


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## BrianMcG

JPsuff said:


> Why will it always be *much* lower?
> 
> -JP


Well it won't ALWAYS be MUCH lower. However, I would be willing to bet that the higher your maximum swing speed is the lower relatively your average will be.

For example. Take the 70yr old lady whose swing speed is always 60mph. She will never need to alter he swing or swing "easy" for anything. Here maximum will pretty much be her average also. However if you take a Long Drive champ to a good golf course and take his measurements on every par 4 and 5 (assuming he is hitting driver) and he is playing for score (you couldn't tell him about this swing speed thing), you will see a much larger disparity between his maximum and his average.


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## 300Yards

Brian, I do undestand averages, if anything I have more high numbers, than low numbers. I will agree that on a narrower fairway, it is sometimes wise to hold back..and I apologize, as I did not see that in your post. ANyway, I guess all I'm trying to say is wh ywould they hold back so much? If they can swing 130, then wh yare the dropping down to 115? That's just to much, IMO. I don't have an ego proble, I am a very methodical player, but I tend to go for it, more often that not. But why not go for it? That's when you start learning things about your abilities.

ANd as far as this the pros swing 150.the highest recorded swing speed, that I could find was 152MPH, by Jason Zuback..and I imagine that ball flew nearly 400 yards..I have NEVER seen the pros swing that hard. The 120-140 range is more likely.


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## 300Yards

Doby45 said:


> Your handicap has nothing to do with it. *He never said it was dumb to smack a ball 350yards down the fairway. He made a very good point that if the fairway is wide open and long you will see the pros coming out of their shoes and hitting the high swings speeds that we know they can. BUT, on a hole that might have trouble in the landing area of a full blown driver shot, the pros will use proper course management and lay back on their swing so that they avoid possible trouble with a really long drive.* Now in doing this they might swing 150mph when the fairway is wide open and 115mph when they have trouble long. This would average them to 132.5mph on their swing speed. If you add in just one more par four with trouble at the landing zone their average would go down even further. This does not mean that the pro can't hit a high speed swing though. *THAT is the point that was being made. And you took it as a personally attack against your ego and your "go for it" attitude. To each their own, but I think everyone is entitled to their opinions on this board and simply because something does not agree with one of the resident professional non-professionals does not make it wrong.*


Yeah, I didn't read the part about a narrow fairway..so sorry, Brian!

I didn't take it as a personal attack..He just put it like I had no clue what I was doing..I'm well aware of holding back on a situational problem..anyway, let's drop this..I don't know about ya'll, but I ma starting to confuse myself..anyway, sorry everyone!


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## Lead Tape

300Yards said:


> ANd as far as this the pros swing 150.the highest recorded swing speed, that I could find was 152MPH, by Jason Zuback..and I imagine that ball flew nearly 400 yards..I have NEVER seen the pros swing that hard. The 120-140 range is more likely.


A couple of them have hit 160+ mph, Zuback was one of them recently since he got his physical problems healed and could win a Mr. World competition.

You are definitely correct on the other. NO PGA PRO can hit 150 mph. Not ONE of them. They don't have the ability to just turn it on that high and they are NOT in the same league distance wise as the TOP GUNS in the LDA. Even Daly admitted it when he was hitting with them 2 years ago when Pinnacle had amateurs challenging the long drive pros along with Daly for a big promotion deal all over the country.

It's like professional baseball players, there are only a few that come around over time that can get a fastball over 100 mph. They are in a completely different league and the rest of them will NEVER get it up there regardless of what they do or try.

As I stated earlier in another post, a good gauge would be to take their driving distance as laid out on the PGA Tour stats and divide by 2.31. That'll give you club head speed in mph.


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## Lead Tape

JPsuff said:


> .
> 
> 
> Kick point has little to do with overall performance or ball flight. I've pointed this out before on this and other forums and it has been met with more than a fair amount of skepticism.
> 
> First of all, the so-called "kick points" on a typical golf shaft generally exist within the space of about one inch on the shaft. Secondly, kick point has more to do with comfort than performance. A shaft with a high kick point will feel a bit stiffer than one with a low to mid kick point. It has been demonstrated in a variety of studies that the effect of a shaft's kick point with regard to launch angle is minimal at best. Most studies indicate that the range of difference amounts to about one-degree between low and high kick points and is considered to be a negligable factor.
> 
> 
> -JP


Oh man...why did you have to go out and spill all the beans. I wanted to see some of the other responses come in that were all over the ball park and then have them dispute or argue about it.

There is not one word that you wrote that is out of place and I agree 100%. There's only one more question I'd like to ask (don't answer JP because I know that you know). 

How many inches up on the shaft does a low kickpoint start vs. a high kickpoint? In other words, WHERE are they located? Is a low kick point fairly close to the hosel or just a little ways up...is a mid kick point half way up the shaft...and is a high kick point right below the grip?
What do you think?


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## Lead Tape

Doby45 said:


> the pros will use proper course management and lay back on their swing so that they avoid possible trouble with a really long drive. Now in doing this they might swing 150mph when the fairway is wide open and 115mph when they have trouble long. This would average them to 132.5mph on their swing speed.
> 
> Doby, first of all PGA pros CANNOT swing 150 mph. Unless you've worked with radar on a daily basis to get results from ALL TYPES of golfers, pros included, you would know that they can't. Secondly, there isn't that kind of REDUCTION in swing speed when swinging hard or easy. Nor would they ever consider doing it that easy. They would rather manage the course by hitting a 3-wood or long iron than pussy footing around. You get nasty results by lolly gagging into the ball.
> 
> To each their own, but I think everyone is entitled to their opinions on this board and simply because something does not agree with one of the resident professional non-professionals does not make it wrong.


You're right about everybody on a forum of any kind being entitled to their views. However, that doesn't mean a person that doesn't have the experience, professional knowledge, empirical evidence, nor knows his ass from a hole in the ground is right either.

I guess it's one of the hazards of a forum. EVERYBODY IS OR CAN COME ACROSS AS A PRO...EVERYONE IS A PRO...EVERYONE IS A ZERO HANDICAP OR BETTER or at least make believe and blow off like they are.

Lead Tape...(a resident professional PROFESSIONAL in real life.)


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## Doby45

Lead Tape said:


> You're right about everybody on a forum of any kind being entitled to their views. However, that doesn't mean a person that doesn't have the experience, professional knowledge, empirical evidence, nor knows his ass from a hole in the ground is right either.
> 
> I guess it's one of the hazards of a forum. EVERYBODY IS OR CAN COME ACROSS AS A PRO...EVERYONE IS A PRO...EVERYONE IS A ZERO HANDICAP OR BETTER or at least make believe and blow off like they are.
> 
> Lead Tape...(a resident professional PROFESSIONAL in real life.)


I take it as the red text was your input. I was not stating any of the swing speeds as facts, simply as an analogy.. I was simply trying to make the point easy to understand because it was evidently escaping the grasp of some people. I personally have never posted a handicap or attempted to come off as a scratch golfer. I simply like to observe..


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## 300Yards

Lead Tape said:


> Oh man...why did you have to go out and spill all the beans. I wanted to see some of the other responses come in that were all over the ball park and then have them dispute or argue about it.
> 
> There is not one word that you wrote that is out of place and I agree 100%. There's only one more question I'd like to ask (don't answer JP because I know that you know).
> 
> How many inches up on the shaft does a low kickpoint start vs. a high kickpoint? In other words, WHERE are they located? Is a low kick point fairly close to the hosel or just a little ways up...is a mid kick point half way up the shaft...and is a high kick point right below the grip?
> What do you think?


For the low kick point..about 2 inches down from the bottom of the grip, high kick, about 4 inches from the hosel, Midkick is in between there somewhere..


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## 300Yards

Lead Tape said:


> A couple of them have hit 160+ mph, Zuback was one of them recently since he got his physical problems healed and could win a Mr. World competition.
> 
> You are definitely correct on the other. NO PGA PRO can hit 150 mph. Not ONE of them. They don't have the ability to just turn it on that high and they are NOT in the same league distance wise as the TOP GUNS in the LDA. Even Daly admitted it when he was hitting with them 2 years ago when Pinnacle had amateurs challenging the long drive pros along with Daly for a big promotion deal all over the country.
> 
> It's like professional baseball players, there are only a few that come around over time that can get a fastball over 100 mph. They are in a completely different league and the rest of them will NEVER get it up there regardless of what they do or try.
> 
> As I stated earlier in another post, a good gauge would be to take their driving distance as laid out on the PGA Tour stats and divide by 2.31. That'll give you club head speed in mph.


See, and this is why i don't think I could be in the LDA..even if you think i could. I hit hard, but I simple don't hit hard enough. Even my gorilla like cousin doesn't quite have enough speed. I find it amazing these guys can swing this hard..I'm a pretty strong litte guy, and I have a very solid technique..and I may have reahed 130MPH, a few times..but how do these guys do it so frequently?? That's what baffles me..


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## 300Yards

Lead Tape said:


> You're right about everybody on a forum of any kind being entitled to their views. However, that doesn't mean a person that doesn't have the experience, professional knowledge, empirical evidence, nor knows his ass from a hole in the ground is right either.
> 
> I guess it's one of the hazards of a forum. EVERYBODY IS OR CAN COME ACROSS AS A PRO...EVERYONE IS A PRO...EVERYONE IS A ZERO HANDICAP OR BETTER or at least make believe and blow off like they are.
> 
> Lead Tape...(a resident professional PROFESSIONAL in real life.)



I'll admit, I'm not always scratch..there have been times when I shoot above my handicap..it happens. I consider my cap, more of a potential that anything..and i don't think that everyone is a pro..I would NEVER consider myself one, and frankly as much as I respect the pros, I would find it outright disrespectful to do so.


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## Lead Tape

Doby45 said:


> I take it as the red text was your input. I was not stating any of the swing speeds as facts, simply as an analogy.. I was simply trying to make the point easy to understand because it was evidently escaping the grasp of some people. I personally have never posted a handicap or attempted to come off as a scratch golfer. I simply like to observe..



Yes, the red was my input to the statements right above it. As far as the PGA "AVERAGE" driving distance goes which is listed on their site or TGC...the AVERAGE is not derived from every par 4 and par 5 on the course where they may be using a fairway wood, iron, or even cutting back slightly on their driver swing, and I do mean slightly. Pros prefer putting a full swing on most everything from the tee box which is why they'll hit fairway woods or irons instead of powder puff drivers that have a big variance in their normal driver swing.

Driving distance stats are based on two (2) predetermined holes on the course that are either par 5's, long par 4's, straight away, and just about a guarantee that EVERY player will be pulling out the driver and whaling the dog crap out of it. They also try to pick two holes that go in opposite directions, such as north/south or east/west just in case they're playing into a headwind on one hole and a tailwind on the next. THAT WAY they can get a FAIR average.
The stats from those 2 holes are used for the remainder of the tournament or up to the cut for players that don't go all 4 rounds.

Btw, I wasn't jumping on you about claiming to be a scratch golfer. It was just a broad generality regarding the impressions that a large number of forum members try to portray with their responses, when in actual fact they'll never come close to sniffing it or have any idea what it takes to get there and maintain it. It's the make believe world of forums, a place where you can be whatever you want to be and act out your fantasies, give all the opinions in the world - right or wrong, and even if it's dead wrong you (plural) can argue your ass off and maintain your position of "right" and superiority.

It's just difficult at times to determine who DOES know what they're talking about and who is disseminating the correct information.


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## Lead Tape

300Yards said:


> See, and this is why i don't think I could be in the LDA..even if you think i could. I hit hard, but I simple don't hit hard enough. Even my gorilla like cousin doesn't quite have enough speed. I find it amazing these guys can swing this hard..I'm a pretty strong litte guy, and I have a very solid technique..and I may have reahed 130MPH, a few times..but how do these guys do it so frequently?? That's what baffles me..



It genetics to a large degree. At that level it's either there, or it's not. 

I really don't know if you could be in the LDA. I do know that you wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell at a long drive competition using a standard length driver. You'd have to learn how to hit something longer. Yeh, I know about the height thing. But it takes practice. 130 miles an hour won't cut in for long drive competition at the higher levels. It COULD win a local qualifier though and I was pushing you just for the experience. The rush that you get out of competing, the excitement, the challenge, the adrenaline flow, the fun...there's nothing like it.

If there's a way to boost your speed up to 140 miles an hour over some time...you COULD compete at higher levels AND WIN. WHY? Because you can hit some monster drives at 140 mph. Remember, you only get 6 balls. 140 mph blasts that are solidly struck IN THE GRID will BEAT a 155 mph ball that is hooked/sliced out of bounds, popped up, or hit on the toe or heel in the grid. It's about hitting it long, straight, and solidly under pressure.

I know from long experience that 130 mph with a standard length club has the potential for more if you can in fact learn to swing a longer one that should produce higher speeds. Again 130 mph at the local level should do some real damage. You owe it to YOURSELF. You're young only once and WE ALL have let too many opportunities slip away without ever trying and then it's too late.


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## Lead Tape

300Yards said:


> For the low kick point..about 2 inches down from the bottom of the grip, high kick, about 4 inches from the hosel, Midkick is in between there somewhere..


No, my long ball hitting friend, those measurements AIN'T EVEN CLOSE!
But, don't feel bad because that's what about 99.9% of the golfing population would have said and believe as the gospel truth.

Actually, I'm proud of you for having the balls to at least step up to the plate and give your thoughts.

I would liked to have seen more responses. I'll give you the stats on it, but what's going to piss me off is that those who AREN'T in the industry will come across as stating, "YEH, I KNEW THAT. IT'S COMMON KNOWLEDGE" Or, they'll still argue with me and say that I have no idea what I'm talking about. LMAO 

The following are Medians, as well as the kick point range for CUT SHAFTS in a driver and 5-iron which is measured FROM THE TIP.

Steel Driver Shafts: Median kick point/Kick point average
High Kick point 18.70"/ 18.51" - 18.88"
Mid Kick point 18.64"/ 18.46" - 18.83"
Low Kick point 18.59"/ 18.47" - 18.75"


Steel #5-Iron Shafts:
High Kick point 16.08"/ 15.70" - 16.20"
Mid Bend point 16.22"/ 15.84" - 16.31"
Low Bend point 16.07"/ 16.02" - 16.22"


Graphite Driver Shafts
High Bend Point 18.77"/ 18.54" - 19.73"
Mid Bend Point 18.53"/ 18.29" - 18.79"
Low Bend Point 18.57"/ 18.18" - 18.88"


Graphite #5-Iron Shafts
High Bend Point 16.35"/ 16.16" - 16.44"
Mid Bend Point 15.96"/ 15.51" - 16.58"
Low Bend Point 15.94"/ 15.72" - 16.06"


So as you can see, for a graphite driver shaft the LOWEST kick point is 18.18" and the highest kickpoint is 19.73" from the TIP. NOTHING in the way of a kickpoint is near the grip. That's a difference of a little over 1 1/2". And what really determines that is how FLEXIBLE or STIFF the shaft is along with either very high or fairly low TORQUE measurement COMBINATIONS. When compared to flex, torque, and weight of the shaft...kick point is a negligible and somewhat immaterial measurement in the entire scheme of things.
But that's OK...believe whatever you want and dispute it to death.
However, be prepared to PROVIDE some hard core factual reasons otherwise and not just myths, wives tales, and stuff grandma told you.


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## 300Yards

Interesting..thanks for that..I always wondered precisely where they were..at least I knew the low was high, the high was low, many people wouldn't even have known that..


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## 300Yards

Lead Tape said:


> It genetics to a large degree. At that level it's either there, or it's not.
> 
> I really don't know if you could be in the LDA. I do know that you wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell at a long drive competition using a standard length driver. You'd have to learn how to hit something longer. Yeh, I know about the height thing. But it takes practice. 130 miles an hour won't cut in for long drive competition at the higher levels. It COULD win a local qualifier though and I was pushing you just for the experience. The rush that you get out of competing, the excitement, the challenge, the adrenaline flow, the fun...there's nothing like it.
> 
> If there's a way to boost your speed up to 140 miles an hour over some time...you COULD compete at higher levels AND WIN. WHY? Because you can hit some monster drives at 140 mph. Remember, you only get 6 balls. 140 mph blasts that are solidly struck IN THE GRID will BEAT a 155 mph ball that is hooked/sliced out of bounds, popped up, or hit on the toe or heel in the grid. It's about hitting it long, straight, and solidly under pressure.
> 
> I know from long experience that 130 mph with a standard length club has the potential for more if you can in fact learn to swing a longer one that should produce higher speeds. Again 130 mph at the local level should do some real damage. You owe it to YOURSELF. You're young only once and WE ALL have let too many opportunities slip away without ever trying and then it's too late.



I see what your saying there...and I do believe with a bit more trining and what not, I could get more speed. But, right now, I am really trying to get a carrer in the medical field..probably in Radiography...maybe after I get a steady career going, in 3 to 4 years, I woul do something like this. As of now, I don't have the resources, nor the money to do something like that. I am interested though, I just feel like I have other priorities at the moment.


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## Lead Tape

300Yards said:


> I see what your saying there...and I do believe with a bit more trining and what not, I could get more speed. But, right now, I am really trying to get a carrer in the medical field..probably in Radiography...maybe after I get a steady career going, in 3 to 4 years, I woul do something like this. As of now, I don't have the resources, nor the money to do something like that. I am interested though, I just feel like I have other priorities at the moment.



Well, you are correct about the resources and the money. It does take some coin and time to practice and experiment.

I'm at least glad it's your career and not some chick that has you wrapped around her finger whining..."You'd rather spend more time hitting golf balls and be on the golf course than with meeeee!"
(has anyone else here heard those lines before?) LOL


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